My dog bit my child on the face

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by whynotnaveen

...Instead of putting him down, you can still search for someone who can keep the dog for guarding their large property. This type of dogs are highly suitable for guarding large property.

Here, people would compete to take this dog.

Maybe so in India, but the OP doesn't live in India.

You clearly fail to understand that your advice is not appropriate for us here in our country. It is culturally insensitive for you to post such advice.

[Earl H]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

Maybe so in India, but the OP doesn't live in India.

You clearly fail to understand that your advice is not appropriate for us here in our country. It is culturally insensitive for you to post such advice.

Too far!!!!....Person has an opinion, one that you don't share, but one that he is entitled to, never-the-less...and not culturally insensitive. This problem is not as black/white as so many seem to believe. Unless the dog has nerve issues or is unstable, PTS is not the automatic resolution here. Now the dog's home may not best be with the OP or anywhere where encounters with children are likely to occur(such places exist), but that doesn't mean that it cant find a home or use elsewhere. You've made it clear that it isn't something that you could deal with. That doesn't mean that someone else couldn't work with the animal. There are likely a number of circumstances that this dog could be placed in successfully. There are a number of breeds that aren't necessarily great kid dogs (i.e. Belgian Mals, some of the toy terrier breeds, etc...now there are exceptions to this stereotype), does that mean that they should all be eradicated?

[LeopoldDerLowe]

To all who have so kindly responded. Many of you have given good
advice and I appreciate it--that is what forums like this are for.
However, to those of you who assume you know anything about my kids or ourselves based on a couple paragraphs of information, I pretty much have to bite my tongue. This is the wife speaking who would, in fact, put the dog down. I brag on this dog all the time that he is the best dog I have ever owned--I love him but, I am more concerned for the safety of my children and am devasted by what happened in front of my own eyes. I love my kids more than any dog. We are not some back woods idiots.
My kids DO NOT tease or mistreat the dog. The first biting incident happened to my five year old one minute after I told him to leave the dog alone. We didn't see it happen and had to ask a lot of questions to get the story straight from him. Basically the dog was resting-not asleep and he got in his face -blew, breathed in it --not sure which but was not meaning to tease but love. The dog was young and we gave him another chance thinking it was a fluke and do recognize that it was our fault. Told the kids not to hug the dog, not to play rough, not to do this or that because you don't play that way with a rottie! I read dog behavior books, took him to obedience--you just cant be prepared for every situation. Now, the more I read and understand, I would never get another rott with kids this age. Thought we were doing things right and if he was excercised and trained and got enough attention he would be stable. I have grown up with many different large breed dogs who we loved and even God forbid "hugged" and have never had one as trained as this one and never been bit or had anyone in my family bit.
Chica...you said the dog was "constantly being nagged".. If a kid cant sit on the porch next to his dog and calmly pet him and when he slowly and sweetly moves his face a few inches closer, no squeezing, choking type hug--not even a hug--and the dog shows No signs up until he is biting his face, you call that nagging? I was looking right at him. I did NOT miss the signs. There were none. I know what the signs look like. We have two dogs and have seen our rott try to dominate the other dog. I know these dogs need to know who's boss...blah blah blah I would put him down. My husband and I disagree but he is not an idiot and major changes in our behavior with the dog are in place. It will no longer be much fun for our kids to have this dog because their interaction is very limited. This whole situation has put a huge strain on our family. So thanks for your advice and to those of you who made me mad enough to respond--which I said I wouldn't -- please don't think your 4 year old is responsible enough to know how to act around your rott or your kid could be next! I don't care how good your dog is because last week that was my dog.

[chicatropical]

Getting " mad" about what and how people respond to your threat intended for this forums members to read
Is certainly not the solution to this problem. You were simply looking for people to tell you what you
Already knew - if provoked by your kids behavior or not - the safety of your children is certainly the
Most important and the fact that you cannot afford another similar accident to happen. In other words,
Keeping the dog is not the best idea, unless you are prepared to suffer an anxiety attack every time you
Step out the room and leave the dog alone with your kids. Thats pretty clear, isnt it?

Whats not so clear - what will happen to the dog? Rehome? Putting him to sleep? Give another chance and train
Differently?

My 4 year old certainly knows how to behave around the dogs, and the dogs around her. Your case sure is shocking
But that doesnt mean that this has to happen in another household, or mine. On the other hand, are you there
100 procent of the time, can you say for sure that you supervise your 4 (!) Kids to the point that besides those
Incidents they have not and never teased the dog in any way?

Yes, true, sitting besides a dog on the proch petting him is no reason for the dog to react the way he did. This
Just shows that your dog doesnt respect your children

[poohbearsmom]

Leopold,

Please understand that when we give advice on a public forum like this, we are not only responding to you, the OP, we are giving advice for all the other people who read a thread like this as well. No one here has accused your children of teasing the dog or otherwise mistreating him. Your children have behaved just as any other normal child would.

Besides, kids do things and receive unintentional results a lot, as testing the waters is a completely normal thing to a maturing child! My niece, for instance, did exactly as your youngest dig to my oldest male (who has the patience of Job!) when she was about three years old. The dog was sitting in front of her, and she put her face right in front of his and blew.... he backed up and bit the air in front of her, blowing her hair back as he did so... it scared the bejesus out of her, and she learned her lesson. The difference between the dogs reactions was that in the case of my boy, he warned my niece.... in the case of your boy, his teeth made contact. Dogs don't accidently bite like this... they know exactly where their teeth are.

When he was about 7 years old, my nephew ran from the aforementioned dog after we'd told him not to, and just as we were repeating ourselves, dog chased boy around the pool deck, then hooked boy ankle with his front paw... boy went down! Boychild believed us after that...

Kids will be kids and dogs will be dogs.... when together they MUST be supervised and rules must apply.

On the subject of hugging; again, some dogs absolutely love physical affection from humans. Some do not. We should never force a dog to endure this type of "affection" who does not absolutely love it. Dogs do not naturally show affection the way humans do, and in many intances a "hug" is actually a dominant maneuver; some dogs can and will view this as a threat, and if this "threat" comes from a child, many dogs will put a stop to it, either by moving away or using their teeth. Dogs challenge each other by moving into the other's space, so why would a dog view this behavior from a human any differently? Teaching a child to respect a dog's space is paramount.

Any and every dog can bite. Each dog has an individual threshold - the point of no return, so to speak. A dog who lives in a household full of children had better have a VERY high threashold, or things will happen, as you and your children have found out the hard way. How a dog is managed has everything to do with his individual thresholds and temperament.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by LeopoldDerLowe

To all who have so kindly responded. Many of you have given good
advice and I appreciate it--that is what forums like this are for.
However, to those of you who assume you know anything about my kids or ourselves based on a couple paragraphs of information, I pretty much have to bite my tongue. This is the wife speaking who would, in fact, put the dog down. I brag on this dog all the time that he is the best dog I have ever owned--I love him but, I am more concerned for the safety of my children and am devasted by what happened in front of my own eyes. I love my kids more than any dog. We are not some back woods idiots.
My kids DO NOT tease or mistreat the dog. The first biting incident happened to my five year old one minute after I told him to leave the dog alone. We didn't see it happen and had to ask a lot of questions to get the story straight from him. Basically the dog was resting-not asleep and he got in his face -blew, breathed in it --not sure which but was not meaning to tease but love. The dog was young and we gave him another chance thinking it was a fluke and do recognize that it was our fault. Told the kids not to hug the dog, not to play rough, not to do this or that because you don't play that way with a rottie! I read dog behavior books, took him to obedience--you just cant be prepared for every situation. Now, the more I read and understand, I would never get another rott with kids this age. Thought we were doing things right and if he was excercised and trained and got enough attention he would be stable. I have grown up with many different large breed dogs who we loved and even God forbid "hugged" and have never had one as trained as this one and never been bit or had anyone in my family bit.
Chica...you said the dog was "constantly being nagged".. If a kid cant sit on the porch next to his dog and calmly pet him and when he slowly and sweetly moves his face a few inches closer, no squeezing, choking type hug--not even a hug--and the dog shows No signs up until he is biting his face, you call that nagging? I was looking right at him. I did NOT miss the signs. There were none. I know what the signs look like. We have two dogs and have seen our rott try to dominate the other dog. I know these dogs need to know who's boss...blah blah blah I would put him down. My husband and I disagree but he is not an idiot and major changes in our behavior with the dog are in place. It will no longer be much fun for our kids to have this dog because their interaction is very limited. This whole situation has put a huge strain on our family. So thanks for your advice and to those of you who made me mad enough to respond--which I said I wouldn't -- please don't think your 4 year old is responsible enough to know how to act around your rott or your kid could be next! I don't care how good your dog is because last week that was my dog.

I've always said owning a dog should be a pleasure not a pain...or a "project"...what's the use of having a dog, if you have to walk around on tenderhooks all of the time?

I raised two kids around big dogs (Doberman, German Shepherds) and Rotts when they were teens...and none got bitten. I'm sure they did bug, when I did not see....but stable dogs can leave and walk away.

I do question where you got this dog from? A well bred Rottie can tolerate and love their kids...and I have a feeling your dog comes from a BYB with questionable breeding.

Don't think getting a Boxer may not have turned out this way, I was bitten in the face by a neighbors Boxer as a child, just sitting minding my own business.
All dogs can bite, and some do bite...the larger the dog, the more damage. I've also seen some nasty Labs, as well as Goldens.

Get this dog evaluated, see what they have to say...and take it from there.If they don't think things can be changed around...then PTS.

Gina

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Earl H

...that doesn't mean that it cant find a home or use elsewhere....That doesn't mean that someone else couldn't work with the animal. There are likely a number of circumstances that this dog could be placed in successfully....

Again, I ask you:

Where are the places that will take a dog that's bitten a child in the face? Who are the people who will?

Please give specifics.

My rescue group gets contacted by people whose dogs have done what the OPs dog has done and worse.

I want you to tell me the names of places that will take biting dogs so I can refer callers with biting dogs to these places.

[Earl H]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

Leopold,


When he was about 7 years old, my nephew ran from the aforementioned dog after we'd told him not to, and just as we were repeating ourselves, dog chased boy around the pool deck, then hooked boy ankle with his front paw... boy went down! Boychild believed us after that...

I LOL'd on that one. Funny story.

AB,

I know your question was meant as a challenge...discussion doesn't have to take that tone. Now...there is no 1 organization that specializes in dogs that bite children, but if you think outside the box and do some legwork you can find people or businesses that will take the dog. Now this assumes that the dog has sound nerves and is stable...his only "issue" is that he is intolerant of the kinds of things that kids can/will do to dogs...there are some outstanding posts in this thread that touch on dog personalities and traits that don't fit the "Lassie" mold.

~ 15 years ago, My wife and I had to place a Rott, that had never bitten anyone (but me), but was extremely strong willed. He battled me for dominance daily. I finally got to the point that I couldn't have such a big dominant dog that I only had sporadic control over living in an apartment setting (just got out of grad school in Tallahasee no less...shout out to PBM) so closely to people and children. I felt the potential for something bad to happen was just too great. He was great in every other way. He was extremely protective of my wife and was a good "house dog". He was a hard dog (not a nut case) to be sure, but never showed signs of being viscous. I contacted a PP training company (you can find them much easier today on the net) and asked if they wouldn't mind evaluating him for entry into their program. The specialized in training estate and business security dogs. He tested extremely well and was young enough, at <2.5yrs and they took him. NOTE: he tested well tempermentally and he showed the adequate drives applicable to the work. The person that ended up buying him from the PP agency owned a small business, that needed some security presense (not junkyard) and was also looking for a companion...NO KIDS (and he signed a waiver/contract from the PP training company)!!!!! Now I didn't get any money for him (guy paid over $10K for the dog), but was happy that he found a home and didn't have to be PTS. Now I knew enough at the time to not contact a shelter or rescue...he was too much dog for the average person and in the wrong hands was a huge liability. Fact is, this dog was why I got into Schutzhund, the method of training that I used and my application of the training really never gave him the "rewards" that he needed. It always ended up being a battle of wills. I recognize that it was completely my fault and my inexperience at the time could have cost this dog his life. I am glad it didnt', and I would love to have this dog over again...

Now on to other sources...contact local or not so local sport clubs or personal protection training services/businesses(i.e. Schutzhund, Ring, other).... Be warned, not all dogs are suitable to be placed in thes environments. It must possess certain other qualities that might make it appealing (i.e. good prey drive, hardness, solid nerve, "fight drive", etc.) to a specific type of individual or setting... And not all clubs will take on dogs like this. Some clubs are purely sport and really don't know how to train or work with dogs that don't fit within a certain "box" (i.e. more defense biased). Not everyone can train a dog that will bite you for real and those dogs don't always make the best "sport dogs" or family/pp dogs. I see it many times over where new people get into the sport, with enough money to buy a "High-End" dog, but without the experience or patience to learn how to train the dog. Inevitably, it ends up badly...someone gets bit...usually the owner. Not the end of the world...but for a newbie its devastating. In many cases the dog is perfectly fine, its the owner that hasn't learned how to harness the dogs drives or to apply corrections at the right time (read my example above) to establish rank order. I give you some of the above disclaimers, because I don't want you to believe that you are always going to find a match. Its not like a rescue where they take everyone. However it is one potential way to maybe find a home/purpose for an animal that is too much for his/her owner.

Again...not a slam dunk, black & white, sure fire..(any more cliches) method. It is just one...and very much like dog training where there is always more than one way to "skin the cat"

Signed,
"Cliche" Earl

[katb156]

I've briefly skimmed through this thread and just want to make one point.

My Polly, who was the absolute best Dog ever, great with kids, loved everyone, and was a personal rescue that I made from the owners who had an Oops litter between their male Rottie and female Golden Retreiver. She was the only survivor in the litter so she didn't learn alot of doggie social skills, but was nonetheless, wonderful with everyone and everything.

Anyway, she absolutely hated to be hugged. She never tried to bite, but would give a warning grumble that she did not like it, and to please get out of her personal space. It was natural for kids to want to hug her because she was a teddy bear, but they were always told not to, and told "Polly does not like to be hugged".

So even the best dogs, and the best dogs with sound temperament, do not like to be hugged. Hugging is a human aspect of affection, not a Dog's.

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Earl H

...I know your question was meant as a challenge...

It was not. You're quite incorrect.

I wanted you to tell me what to do with dogs that bite people because I do not like returning calls to people who leave messages on the phone line of my rescue group that there is no place in society for their biting dog. I do not like telling crying people who love their dog that if they don't want their biter, they need to put their dog down, because nobody else wants a dog that's bitten, either.

Earl, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the matter.

You placed one dog 15 years ago. I've been active in Rottie rescue for more than a decade. My experience has repeatedly shown me there is no place for a dog that's bitten. People don't want them for reasons ranging from concerns for their safety to fear of losing their homeowner's insurace to liability issues. People who are looking for what to do with a biting dog are pet owners--experienced people whose dogs bite do not come to public discussion groups, asking for help, wondering what they should do.

Dogs that one sees at and excel in sport clubs or personal protection training services/businesses(i.e. Schutzhund, Ring, other).... are usually owned by highly experienced, highly dog savvy people. These dogs are typically well bred. People owning and working such dogs are usually not interested in somebody's pet dog for any number of reasons.
Since you shared a story with me, I'll share a story with you:

A couple of years back we got a call from our insurance agent. The company that had insured our home since we'd owned it was no longer writing homeowner's policies in our state. From my long involvement in rescue, I knew this wasn't good for us, but I made no comment to the agent, other than to tell her to find us a new company.

I made photocopies of Moxie's title and certificate paperwork and faxed them to the agent for her to use in her search for a new insurance company for us.

About a week later she called me back. Sarah told me that she'd talked to many companies but no one was interested in providing us homeowner's insurance (with the exception of one--more on this in a second or two). She told me agents were sympathetic, agreed that it was likely our Rottweilers were wonderful, highly trained dogs; thought is was terrific that Mox was an obed show dog; that it was splendid our dogs had never bitten, but their company had a list of banned breeds and it made no difference we'd never filed a claim or that Mox had titles and certificates to prove what a good dog she was or that our dogs had never bitten or that no one had ever had a problem with our dogs.

Sarah told me that she'd managed to find one company to insure us. The preimum would be $2,000/year and the dogs weren't covered. (For the sake of comparison, our premiums with the former company were $750/year and the dogs weren't excluded.)

In short, if getting insurance when you have a non-biting Rottweiler is expensive, how much do you think it would cost to get insurance when you have one that's bitten?

I think if you were in the trenches, actually working to find places for all the biting dogs about which rescue is contacted--or if you tried finding homes for the biting dogs about which people here at RDN post--your posts would be different from what they are. Real life experience often has a way of changing perception.

[Earl H]

Originally Posted by AngelBunny

It was not. You're quite incorrect.

I wanted you to tell me what to do with dogs that bite people because I do not like returning calls to people who leave messages on the phone line of my rescue group that there is no place in society for their biting dog. I do not like telling crying people who love their dog that if they don't want their biter, they need to put their dog down, because nobody else wants a dog that's bitten, either.

Earl, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the matter.

You placed one dog 15 years ago. I've been active in Rottie rescue for more than a decade. My experience has repeatedly shown me there is no place for a dog that's bitten. People don't want them for reasons ranging from concerns for their safety to fear of losing their homeowner's insurace to liability issues. People who are looking for what to do with a biting dog are pet owners--experienced people whose dogs bite do not come to public discussion groups, asking for help, wondering what they should do.

Dogs that one sees at and excel in sport clubs or personal protection training services/businesses(i.e. Schutzhund, Ring, other).... are usually owned by highly experienced, highly dog savvy people. These dogs are typically well bred. People owning and working such dogs are usually not interested in somebody's pet dog for any number of reasons.
Since you shared a story with me, I'll share a story with you:

A couple of years back we got a call from our insurance agent. The company that had insured our home since we'd owned it was no longer writing homeowner's policies in our state. From my long involvement in rescue, I knew this wasn't good for us, but I made no comment to the agent, other than to tell her to find us a new company.

I made photocopies of Moxie's title and certificate paperwork and faxed them to the agent for her to use in her search for a new insurance company for us.

About a week later she called me back. Sarah told me that she'd talked to many companies but no one was interested in providing us homeowner's insurance (with the exception of one--more on this in a second or two). She told me agents were sympathetic, agreed that it was likely our Rottweilers were wonderful, highly trained dogs; thought is was terrific that Mox was an obed show dog; that it was splendid our dogs had never bitten, but their company had a list of banned breeds and it made no difference we'd never filed a claim or that Mox had titles and certificates to prove what a good dog she was or that our dogs had never bitten or that no one had ever had a problem with our dogs.

Sarah told me that she'd managed to find one company to insure us. The preimum would be $2,000/year and the dogs weren't covered. (For the sake of comparison, our premiums with the former company were $750/year and the dogs weren't excluded.)

In short, if getting insurance when you have a non-biting Rottweiler is expensive, how much do you think it would cost to get insurance when you have one that's bitten?

I think if you were in the trenches, actually working to find places for all the biting dogs about which rescue is contacted--or if you tried finding homes for the biting dogs about which people here at RDN post--your posts would be different from what they are. Real life experience often has a way of changing perception.

Selective reading...I have placed one dog personally and have seen other dogs placed thru the channels I've mentioned of/on for the past 15 yrs. Note, some of those dogs, have gone to owners after a bit of training that have paid upwards of $5K for them (bear in mind that these are select cases and ones that involve professionals, not "rescues"). Again...these are not usually typical FAMILY environments...so stop those references as they don't apply (usually) in the situations that I am talking about. Remembeer, just because you haven't or cant (not a dig, everyone has their limitations) do it, doesn't mean that it cant be done. I have said repeatedly that is one way, not a guaranteed way. I can appreciate your trenches reference, but there is a world that exists outside of "Rottweiler Rescue". Too many people, especially in this hobby, get so bent on "its one/my way...", or "in my experience...", or "I do this for a living, so I know more..." that they forget that there is always something to learn, a new or different approach. You can cite many examples of why it wont work and in those cases you are probably right, but there are cases where it will. Personally, I try to find solutions, rather than reasons why something cant be done. You wont know till you try. At the end of the day, if you try and its something that you cant make work..the worse thing that you can say is you tried. Expand your horizon by getting out and talking with people in other venues, you just might see some things differently. Your experience seems to have hardened you to alternative ways of doing things...too many reasons why something cant be done here....

At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong here, just putting forth a different approach...and someone may benefit if not you.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by Earl H

Selective reading...I have placed one dog personally and have seen other dogs placed thru the channels I've mentioned. Just because you haven't or cant do it, doesn't mean that it cant be done. I have said repeatedly that is one way, not a guaranteed way. Too many people, especially in this hobby, get so bent on "its one/my way...", or "in my experience...", or "I do this for a living, so I know more..." that they forget that there is always something to learn, a new approach. If my suggestion doesn't work for you then don't use it. Dont worry, I wont be offended. There is no right or wrong here, just putting forth a different approach...and someone may benefit.

Then channel all of this knowledge, and information you have and if these people need to re-home their dog...you can find that "perfect home".

I've also been involved in rescue for many years...not just Rotts but other breeds...there is NO room in this society for a biting dog.

Great dogs, with good temperaments are dying because there are no good homes.

I would rather see a dog be PTS. then end up in the wrong hands, or made into a junk-yard dog.

Gina

[Earl H]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Then channel all of this knowledge, and information you have and if these people need to re-home their dog...you can find that "perfect home".

Gina

You are right. What was I thinking? Offer a different opinion/experience/perspective than some of the more conservative ideoligies on the forum. Nothing left to be said ...you and AB win!

[garbo'smom]

Did anyone thing to have the dog checked out by the vet? There could be a physical reason why the dog is suddenly biting. -Pain. Vision, Hearing. I had a rott who whas 9 yrs old and never a problem then she nip my nephew but I took her to the vet and had blood work done etc and she had leukemia and was in a lot of pain. When dogs can't talk we have to to think logically and figure out the cause. Maybe he doesn't like kids now but maybe he is sick.

For who says humans before dogs I say it depends on the human. I have seen humans be cruel to dogs and If I was dog I would bite them. We need to give the god given inteleligence to find out what cause the problem and not just blame the dog.

[poohbearsmom]

Garbo, this is most likely simply a situation in which the dog has given signals that simplly have not been listened to, and because of it, the dog has been put into a position to fail, and children have been injured.

Earl, I have to agree with AB and Brunie that there is no place in society for biting dogs. Dogs who view children as a threat need to be managed oh so carefully... and a dog with a bite history is a huge liability to all humans who come into contact with him. This dog did not simply get up and move away - he chose to use his teeth instead. There are only two choices for this dog in his future; euthenasia or a strict regimine (for all involved, human and dog) and a modification of the current management of this animal.

There are folks who are experienced in dealing with aggression issues, but I can assure you that very few of those folks, including myself want or need a project dog. We have enough on our plates, and a dog with a bite history is a liability - just ask your home owner's insurance company.

There are plenty of well tempered dogs out there that are fabulous companions, and the average pet owner deserves a dog that is stable and is a joy to spend time with.... looking over one's shoulder constantly is not conducive to relaxed living - nor is it safe with children in it's environment. IMHO, when children are involved, all bets are off for a dog who's crossed the line.

This dog needs to be evaluated and the OP and her family need to think long and hard about their ability to consistently manage this dog in a manner that keeps ALL humans in it's world safe. This includes putting the dog up when children are present, and when company comes over.

I have to tell you, I'm afraid if my child was bitten in the face by a dog of mine, that dog wouldn't make it to the vet to be put down. I've PTS several unstable dogs in my life, and it's one of the most difficult things I've done; putting a dog down that on the outside appears to be perfectly normal.... but the inside is a completely different story. I'm not necessarily advocating that euthenasia should be step one for this dog, but the owners need to get a true understanding of the dog's thresholds and then decide what route they wish to take.