Rotti on Death Row : [

[Bubba Joes Mom]

we live on a small farm and work a few head of goat as a hobby. We have the standard farm, complement of chickens, gease, ect... Last July we purchased a rottie from a local breeder. Before getting Bubba Joe from her, we looked in to her opperation and the animals she has produced in the past three years and were satisfied with the quality of the animals. Bubba Joe came in to our home as a puppy and asimalated with our one year old weirmareiner, Brutus, very well. We keep the goats and chickens on a part of the farm seperated from the house by a fence. The dogs roam around the house but are not allowed by the barn without supervision. One day, after about 5 or 6 months after we moved into the new farm, we found Bubba Joe by the farm surrounded by dead chickens and a seriously injured goat. We didnt fully catch him int the act therefore we were not fully convinced he had been the criminal. We took care of disposing of the dead chickens and the goat died the next day. We checked over the fence and made sure it was unpassable by the dogs once more. We still dont know how he got in. Relentless about the fact that it had been him to do the damage we still kept him loose in the front part of the house. About a month ago my daughter brought a new puppy into the house. Bruno, her new 2 month old boxer, gets along with Bubba like as if they were 2 best friends playing out their childhood with endless fun. At first we were kind of skeptical about leaving Bubba alone with the new puppy, because our weimeriner was uneasy of his presence. However they took to each other just fine. Bubba shows great patience with Bruno and lets him climb all over him. Two days ago we went out to feed the new baby goats and were surprised when we found Bubba with one of the goats in his mouth. We pulled him away from her and took him back to the front of the house. The poor baby was very injured and didnt make it. This time we were certain it was Bubba who had done it and now we are very saddened at the fact that we might have to get rid of him. We have two young children in the home and are scared that our bubba has acted in a manner we are very surprised at. He has tasted blood and who knows what he is capable of. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what we can do with him? I dont want him to turn on me or any of the members of the family but we all love him very much. He is a joy to be around and has shown to be protective of our home.
I contacted animal control after the goat died and they said that once the dog has tasted blood its basically over. I dont know what to do and am open to suggestions.

[mjfish]

Originally Posted by Bubba Joes Mom

He has tasted blood and who knows what he is capable of. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what we can do with him? I dont want him to turn on me or any of the members of the family but we all love him very much. He is a joy to be around and has shown to be protective of our home.
I contacted animal control after the goat died and they said that once the dog has tasted blood its basically over. I dont know what to do and am open to suggestions.

First, I am no expert, so hopefully the more experienced owners will chime in for you. I just had to reply to the "tasted blood" comments. That AC officer is an idiot for saying that and shows that he/she knows nothing about dogs. Any why would you think your dog would turn on you just because he's killed other animals??? How do wild dogs/wolfs eat? By killing other animals...it's a dog thing. I know either of my dogs (Rott and GSDx) would have a field day killing chickens and such...no doubt about it. My GSDx has taken care of her fair share of rodents, cats, and birds in our yards over the years. The Rott has gotten birds and would kill bunnies, squirrels, etc. if he had the chance. He was very interested in ducks flying over the houses the other day...I'm sure he would have no problem taking care of those either. Chickens would not be safe for sure. Does that make me worried? No, that means that they are DOGS and it is my responsibility to see that they don't have much opportunity for that kind of "action".

What kind of training have you done with Bubba? It sounds like your boy has high prey drive and needs to learn how and where to use it. You need to provide constant supervision at this point...meaning he is not out without you being right next to him. Your boy is still a puppy and will be for another year or two. I think it's very unreasonable to just throw a dog out in a farm with very little direction/training and expect that they won't touch any of the animals...especially a breed like this who is quite capable of making his own decisions about what he wants to do. A Rott is very different from a Weimeriner and Boxer, and must be treated/trained as such. Granted they were used for hearding, but you also have to help bring that out and tone down the prey drive at the same time via training. The "Leave it" command would be very useful for you.

My recommendations -- stop leaving Bubba out by himself, get him and your family, and the other dogs too, into training, give Bubba some other job to do on the farm--pulling the manure cart when you clean the stalls/pens, put a backpack on him and fill it with animal food and make him walk around with you when you feed, etc. There's lots for him to do on a farm and be productive rather than destructive!

[SABELLESMOM]

Tho mine have never killed a squirrel, rabbit or bird... I feel I could more or less handle that. However, I think I would feel quite differently if they killed a goat, chicken, or duck! You can't have a dog running around a farm, no matter how small, killing your domesticated animals. He should be herding a goat, not killing it.

Yes, perhaps not leaving him to his own devices, providing supervision, and "jobs," working on "Leave it!" will all help. It is his first big mistake. Perhaps try a herding class, with an instructor who knows what the dog has done. Perhaps you can rechannel his drive into something useful and non destructive.

Oh the AC guy? That was the thinking of 20-30 years ago. Things have changed.

[Nishasmom]

When I was a teenager we moved out into the country with our 5 year old pointer. I got involved with the FFA and soon enough I had a small herd of goats. Well Duke (our pointer) loved the goats...in a bad way . He never killed one, but he tried. With some training, he never did it again. I could actually have him inside the pen with me and he was fine. The whole "taste of blood" thing is absurd.

First, you should never leave your dogs to roam around the farm unattended...they WILL get into trouble. If you must leave them out, I suggest an electric fence....although it is not guaranteed to work, sometimes it can (a friend uses one with her GSD and it works great).

I was a young teenager when I 'trained' my GSP to leave the goats alone. Basically, I punished him for even looking at the goats. He soon learned to leave them alone. After a while, he was aloud to look...he would spend all day just watching the goats. And we never had a problem with him again.

Now that I know more about dog training, I would have gone a different route. Positive reinforcement. Reward your dog for leaving the goats alone (ignoring them). I am sure others will have some great techniques for you to try. My rottie has a MUCH higher pray drive than my GSP did....I would NEVER trust her alone with goats. Killing pray is a normal thing for dogs...it does not mean they will kill humans. Please do not get rid of your dog for that reason; he is simply being a dog...chasing his prey.

Oh, and I would not get into herding...unless you keep him inside during the day (which you should be doing anyways IMO). When dogs are left to 'herd' animals unattended, they often go overboard. They will herd the sheep/ goats until the poor things cant move anymore. Often, this is when the killing begins. A herd dogs natural instinct is to keep the goats moving; once they stop, the dogs bite the goats to get them moving again ...resulting in a lot of dead goats. Who knows, maybe your dog is already trying to herd the goats.

[Anne]

Would you mind please using paragraphs. Long running posts are very difficult to read.

Do you not have a secure fenced house yard? If not I would suggest you securely fence off an area and keep your dogs contained. It's not their fault they are allowed to roam. This dog is doing what dogs do because no one has trained him not to.

As for the 'taste of blood' comments. Those comments only ever are spoken by the uneducated who know no better. I am very surprised that someone in animal control would come out with such a ridiculous statement.

I would contact the breeder and ask if they will take the dog back and find another home for it. I would also suggest you don't get another dog until and unless you can properly and safely confine it where it can't escape to attack goats.

[mjfish]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

Tho mine have never killed a squirrel, rabbit or bird... I feel I could more or less handle that. However, I think I would feel quite differently if they killed a goat, chicken, or duck! You can't have a dog running around a farm, no matter how small, killing your domesticated animals.

ITA, and I probably wasn't clear in that I would not be surprised to see my dogs exibit the same behaviour without any training. They wouldn't know that those animals were off limits unless I worked with them to leave them alone.

Good point Nishasmom about not doing hearding unless he's kept separate...

[Shane]

I'll add to the other comments that we have a number of people here who feed a raw diet and would disagree with the "taste of blood" myth.

[GenHannibal]

There is no correlation between a dog hunting rabbits, groundhogs, deer, chickens, etc. to becoming an agressive dog towards humans!!! Having had an extremely high prey drive dog and knowing of many others, I can tell YOU that is not the case. Having a "taste of blood" has nothing to do with whether the dog will be agressive or not towards a human. Having achieved satisfaction of the actual hunt may be more accurate. Meaning he hunted, he caught the animal and, he will do it again if you do not train him. The boxer is learning this as well.

If you continue to allow your dogs to run around without any training or direction, then, yes you will have a serious problem down the road. No different than allowing a child to run around unsupervised...they can get into tons of mischief. Either find someone who can work with you to train or find a home that will better suit his needs. Neither dog should have to pay the price of being put down due to the lack of training & supervision.

[Bubba Joes Mom]

To all that reply Thanks for the good advice.
This is my first time on a site like this, so I appologizes for the runnig text.
Also the fences was secure until he broke in, he is so strong that he put a hole in his kennel as well, in the last two days.

[fbkeays]

I have done a bit of herding with my rottweilers. The ranch we went to had a number of rottweilers. The dogs, when not working, were secured. The place had a huge quanity of chickens and ducks roming around. They would get into the dog area. The older rottweilers/other dogs were trained not to bother the fowl. When the new dogs came into contact with the birds, a few were killed. The owner had to train the new dogs to not kill the birds.
I had to train my dog to not go after the chickens too. He was titled in herding ducks, geese and sheep. But he would want to try to get a chicken if left to his own devices. Eventually he learned to ignore the chickens in the barnyard.
I actually think that the only dogs that would herd until the stock dropped dead would be poorly or untrained dogs. A dog that is trained to just an HT level is still poorly trained. The ranch owner's main stock dog was routinely left in the sheep barn, with the sheep. My own dog has been left in a 250x350 foot pen with 10 sheep and he didn't run the sheep while the ranch owner dealt with something else for 10 minutes.
A good herding dog is all about control of the stock, not moving the stock. Putting stock in a corner and keeping them there is a popular thing. Herding trials is about controlled movement of stock, not running stock.
Give your dog a job to do. Let the dog know that the chickens and ducks are YOURS and not to be touched by him. Rotts are smart dogs. But if you haven't taught him that the birds are not to be touched, how is he to know that? He probably thought he found a great game to play! A rottweiler's mind is a terrible thing to waste. You are wasting the best time to fill it with good training by leaving him alone to his own amusement.
If you want to blame something for the death of your animals, look in the mirror. The humans in your house are the ones responsible for the deaths of those chickens and goats. Not the dog. The dog was doing what untrained dogs do. If you don't want dead chickens and goats, then get off your butt and do something about it. You bought the dog, now do something with your dog other then setting him up to fail.

[Janus'sMom]

Originally Posted by Bubba Joes Mom

We keep the goats and chickens on a part of the farm seperated from the house by a fence. The dogs roam around the house but are not allowed by the barn without supervision.

We checked over the fence and made sure it was unpassable by the dogs once more. We still dont know how he got in

Relentless about the fact that it had been him to do the damage we still kept him loose in the front part of the house

we were kind of skeptical about leaving Bubba alone with the new puppy, because our weimeriner was uneasy of his presence.

Two days ago we went out to feed the new baby goats and were surprised when we found Bubba with one of the goats in his mouth. We pulled him away from her and took him back to the front of the house.

First question that comes to mind as I'm reading and disecting this in my brain... What type of fence are you talking about? Is it a chain link fence? Wire electrical fence, board fence? Security fence? Something that can be climbed over, or the gate jiggled loose enough to squeeze through? You have to be a little more specific.

Second question about the fence... is it just for the barn yard animals or is it for the dogs? Where is this fence attached to? What is it's purpose (to keep animals in or dogs secured or animals out)? Also is there a point near the fence that Bubba could use to elevate himself to make it easier to jump over?

And just a point from experience in my past (or a friend's past I should say) I bought a new male GSD pup as a gift to a friend that lost her old GSD due to old age... She already a female spayed Malamute of 3yrs old and a male intact English Setter of 2yrs old. When I gave her the puppy she was excited and happy and welcomed him without worries. He was 12wks old when he became part of the family. The three dogs slept together, ate together, and went outside in their secured enclosed yard ( 7' high chainlink fence with and electrical wire running around the top to prevent from climbing out, and cement pavers 2' square around the interior of the fence to prevent digging under). One day she came home from her errands to find her Setter cowering in the doghouse and the Malamute covered in blood and the poor 7month old GSD dead.
The point to this story is this... dispite how well they all got along, when they were unsupervised and together a tragidy happened. To this day we still don't know what happened, but we know that the setter was never harmed physically before or after that incident by the malamute. You shouldn't be leaving any puppies or dogs alone unsupervised no matter how good they get along, and the fact that one of your two dogs is uneasy about the pup is just brewing trouble.

Another point, you shouldn't be surprised to find that Bubba had yet another goat in his jaws. You left him unsupervised and it sounds like he was having free roam of the yard (I may be mistaken, but that's why I was asking specifically what type of fence you have). And every time you saw him where he wasn't suppose to be you just put him back in the front yard. My question now is, where were you when this was allowed to happen?

I'm not here to give you a hard time, I'm just trying to help by pointing out where this should be improoved to make sure that this does not continue to happen. As well as suggesting that you get him into some kind of training wether it be professional herding training or you training him to be by your side and helping you with chores. So he has a job to do and keep his mind and himself occupied so he doesn't have the chance to just roam the front yard and end up by going after the animals again.

And the blood statement is so far from true... I have an uncle in canada that has a collie that killed 3 lambs before she got trained propperly, and now she's among some of the great herders in their area. But before she could be such a great herder and all her hard training, she was left unsupervised and was in Bubba paw prints.

Again, I didn't mean to come off as rude. I just don't want to hear of another Rotti being PTS cause of lack of training or supervission or whatever the case may be if it can be corrected with more training and constant supervission.

[lgslgs]

If your dog can get into the livestock area, so can any stray - so you have two problems. One is your fencing is inadequate for predators, the other is that your rottie isn't properly trained.

No farm dog here is ever allowed in livestock areas unsupervised until they are several years old and have proven themselves reliable. Young dog training is a combination of plain old obedience work, with the occasional VERY RARE usage of an electronic training collar (nick setting only, lowest intensity to get a reaction) when the dog is intentionally ignoring a recall command at a long distance because goat chasing is just too much fun.

Our livestock training is mainly to teach a very good, reliable recall. When the dog goes within a certain distance from a goat, or shows body language of too much interest, we do a recall and then sit, down and other good fun obedience work.

Recall training is done outside of livestock sight until it's very good, and then we work near livestock areas just as if it was any other normal kind of training distraction. We also do leashed walks when livestock are out in the big (15 acre) livestock area and the dog gets a lot of instruction of how they are supposed to behave around animals.

Until the dog is flawless around livestock they are not left outside without full supervison. And "flawless" means no woofing through fences or getting excited when livestock comes running down the hill. If the dog is still responding like livestock are playmates or prey, they need a alot more training before they can be trusted.

The dogs also need training in knowing that livestock are not to be picked up and carried around. A good livestock dog may have a desire to carry it's charges around, but may hurt or kill them in the process. I like to have all of our livestock dogs trained to the point where they really know that they really respect around their livestock animals, and don't crowd them, herd them, lick their udders, or otherwise invade their space unless there is a true predator threat and they need to gather the herd. If our goats raise their ears to any of our dogs, we expect the dog to be respectful and interact calmly with the goat from a distance.


There's a lot of training involved in getting a farm dog to the point where they are reliable with livestock, and until they are it doesn't take evil intent for someone to get hurt. Even innocent play can cause a broken leg or aborted kid. Mouthing a young animal could injure or kill it. Licking udders to annoy a goat into running so you can play chase could cause someone to slip and fall. And lack of supervision will have your dog demonstrating for you every spot where your current fencing is open to perdators.


Lynda

[Inga]

Bubba Joes mama, I also do not agree with the once they taste blood they are never the same theory. If that were the case I would be in constant danger since my dogs have had raw meat before. I would recommend that you build a more secure fence. Also training the dog to stay away from that area as well as just putting up a barrier that he might just see as a new challenge. If you are dead set on re-homing him, I hope you will make sure he makes it into a breed rescue instead of a local shelter. His chances of coming out of a local shelter alive are slim in comparisson to a rescue. Putting him with rescue also gives him a greater chance of being placed into an appropriate home. Not just '"A Home" rescue would be more careful in his placement. No doubt, NOT on a farm, with his history. LOL Good luck with him. I know, I couldn't give up my dogs, but I am not in your situation, I don't know if you are in a position to build a more secure fence and start obedience training with him, I hope so. Again, Good luck to you and to Bubba Joe (like that name)

[lgslgs]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

He should be herding a goat, not killing it.

Just my $0.02 on this.

A farm dog really should not be herding goats unless he is being directed to do so or he is bringing them back to home base because of a predator alert. Actual herding activity should usually be a very small part of interaction with livestock.

Most livestock dog work is a cooperation between species, where all species are respectful of the individual strengths and weakness of others.

Our goat herd queen will raise her ears to a dog and issue an impressive "sit/stay" command to a dog that wants to instigate herding activites for no good reason. But if the dog has alerted on something and communicates that something important is going on, all of the goats very willingly accept herding and escort back to the safest part of the land.

In my opinion a good farm utility dog is capable and willing of taking charge when the situation merits, but 99% of the time it's work is to be a cooperative member of the overall livestock/canine/human/bird (and even garden plant) mixed herd. It should not be spending it's time making a pest or annoyance of itself with other herdmates even if it is using beautiful herding form at the time! :)


Lynda