fearful rotti

[maggy]

I have a 15 month old rotti. I have him in handi-dog classes to be my service dog. He is so scared of everything. I have had him since he was 9 wks old. He has always been this way. I have tried to show him everything I have in my hand when he is scared. He is really afraid of people. We are working with him at handi-dogs. But he growls or barks if anyone gets near him. I am afraid he may bite someone if he is cornered. I have vertigo and want him to stay with me during this time, also he is going to be trained to help me get up again after I have vertigo. How can I help him in everyday life at home to not be scared. If he hears a car go by he runs to his pen. When live in the foothills a mile from a main road. We don't get much traffic out here. Even if our kids come to visit he runs or pees all over. He has just started barking and growling. I have 2 little dogs and at this time, my son's Mastiff. He loves the Mastiff. They play all the time. He is a little braver when I take the Mastiff with us to Petsmart or the park. Still he doesn't want people to touch him or get near him. Has anyone else had this problem? Maggy

[miccmill]

You didn't mention if you had spoken with your dogs breeder about this behavior.

I have a 5yr. old fear/aggressive Rottweiler mix who has been this way since we got her at approx. 12 weeks. We've managed her fearfulness with training and structure. She is manageable and even quite a bit less fearful than she was when she was younger but I still and always will consider her a bite risk. She's still the same dog she was, just using a lot of different adaptations to help her cope.

You may want to see an animal behavior specialist. For instance, Dr. Katherine Houpt at Cornell University (in my area). Not talking about a vet or dog trainer who considers themselves a behaviorist.

A truly fearful dog's inate nature cannot be changed. This type of dog would not be appropriate as a service dog and likely (hopefully) would not pass any type of service dog training program.

[Lola B Marie]

Many years ago, I was editor of a news paper called Challenge. It was a voice for the physically challenged on Long Island. I did much research before writing articles and became involved with puppy walkers and Guide dogs, also Canine Companions which paired up dogs with peolpe who had special needs. I wish I could say that with lots of work, your dog could be a good service dog for you. I don't think this will be the case. Service dogs are usually socalized as puppies and learn to accept almost every situation with ease and grace. They need to be in service mode all the time and can have NO aggression or fear. Their brains program to evaluate every situation in a matter of seconds. The person's needs are always first. There is absolutely no room for them to react to their needs first and then think about the person. If a dog is timid or afraid, it will put much to much pressure on the dog to make it put the person first. Some dogs just can't do the job.
I think it will turn out that your girl will just be who she is and perhaps you should not expect more from her.Sometimes all they can give is love, devotion and slobber.
My last rottie girl was a therapy dog all her life. She visited hospitals, aids patients, and the nursing homes in our area. She attended birthday parties and celebrations in her honor. When she died, we waited over a year and got Lola. This girl can't even go to the vets office with out wearing a special collar that sprays her when she acts out. The two girls are like night and day. I wanted her to follow in Sheena's paw prints and become a therapy dog in her own right. The trainers I have had here to evaluate her have said, "just love her because there is no way in her life time she will ever be anything but your pet." She is a nervous wreck and a wild child.
I hope you find the perfect service dog, they really can change lives!

[maggy]

Thank you both for your replies. I have had dogs all my life but never an aggressive type.
Handi-dogs is telling me not to address him when he growls or barks at anyone. Only click and treat when he doesn't do the bad behavior. This is so opposite of what Cesar Millan teaches. I don't know which way to go. Handi-dogs click and treat which I was against in the first place. I taught him not to beg which he hadn't been doing until we went to Handi-dogs. Now I can't get him to go lay down if I am eating. He just sits and stares at me. I am putting him in his pen (crate) when I eat now. I don't feed him people food. If I can't use him for a service dog that is fine...but I want to take him everywhere with me. I am afraid to go out alone to Tucson. I live in a small area outside Tucson. I am thinking maybe because I am sometimes fearful he might have picked it up. When I would walk him I would listen to the Marine Cadences to feel tough, and brave. Maybe I should have had him listening instead of me. HeeHee
I believe more in the way Cesar teaches. But Rusty is my baby boy so I don't want to hurt him. I tried to get him in the seat of the car the other day so I could strap him in and he growled at me for the first time. I didn't act mad or afraid but I was very sad that he did that. He looked at me like he was sad too. He was 9 wks old when I got him and I put him down to go potty and he hid under my car. So he was like this since I got him. My daughter worked with a woman who has a AKC Rotti which bred with a stray rotti she kept. They are both lap dogs and friendly she said. I thought he would grow out of this. I have two little girl dogs and he is starting to growl at them now as of the last few days. He never did it before. I can't have him being mean. But I will do what ever it takes to change his attitude. I might have to get Cesar's help. All my animals are fixed at 3-4 months old. My daughter says he is scared because he didn't become a man before I fixed him. She is kidding of course. I didn't know that his fear would cause him to be aggressive. Thanks again for any advice you can give me. Maggy

[poohbearsmom]

Lola is absolutely correct.

Did you speak to your breeder about the intended use for this dog when you bought him as a puppy? How much research did you do in regards to temperament requirements for service dogs? And finally, is this dog intended for use in your home only, or do you expect him to help you in public?

The answers to these questions will give us some insight as to your needs vs. the dog's ability to cope with that.

Some dogs simply don't do well around people, which does not make for a happy dog life in a human world. If this temperament is combined with environmental weaknesses, you've got a double whammy, so to speak. If he's running from cars that are a mile away and in the security of his own home (if I've read your post correctly), then how might the Mastiff work out for your assistance needs? Is his temperament more suitable for service work?

Desensitation can only get you so far, and as Lola stated, a service animal of any kind needs to be "bomb proof" in order to be confident and safe in public, as well as have the ability to think and do it's intended job. Many dogs who are bred to do service work wash out of the socialization and imprinting programs they start out in, so if your dog was not specifically hand picked to do the work, you may want to rethink your strategy a bit.

[miccmill]

Many dogs who are bred to do service work wash out of the socialization and imprinting programs they start out in, so if your dog was not specifically hand picked to do the work, you may want to rethink your strategy a bit.

The librarian at the hospital I work in is a puppy raiser for Guiding Eyes. The puppies she gets are coming straight out of a meticulously planned breeding program for service dogs. She is a terrific puppy raiser with 20 years experience and not all of her puppies pass into the second half of the program. Those that don't pass are placed in pet homes and all have wonderful temperments, just not exactly what's going to be needed for service work. It's a special job for just the right dog.

[alessadry]

Hello,
I am near you, from Sierra Vista. I also have 2 Rotties that are 6 months old. I think your dog just needs to work a lot more on his confidence levels. He needs to go out more and expereince more. Treats work great in helping a dog's confidence. Perhaps enroll him in some obedience trianing. Obstacle courses work wonders to make dogs braver. Have him exposed to as much as possible. People with hats, ombrellas, rain, thunder, trucks, dogs, shopping carts etc. Always praise when he demonstrates to be brave. When he shows fear do not try to reassure him or he may think you are praising him for his fear, rather let him investigate the source of his fear, let a treat drop near the truck he is growling at, or have a man with a hat offer him a treat. He may need a lot of work but it certaintly can be worth it.

[SABELLESMOM]

Originally Posted by maggy

Handi-dogs is telling me not to address him when he growls or barks at anyone. Only click and treat when he doesn't do the bad behavior. This is so opposite of what Cesar Millan teaches. I don't know which way to go. Handi-dogs click and treat which I was against in the first place.
I believe more in the way Cesar teaches.

For goodness sake, WHY? Click and treat the correct behavior. It works! You have a sensitive dog who needs to build confidence, and truly "understand" what the expected behavior is! Click and treat will do that for you. He will know absolutely, exactly what you expect.

I do not, and will never agree with all of Ceasr Milan's techniques. He uses some rather negative ones from time to time that I dislike.

I know I've told the story before about the motorcyclist and the mirrored helmet. My stable Raven barked incessantly one day when we were headed to class, She was used to motorcycles following us, but that mirrored visor got to her.

I arrived at class, frustrated and tired. My intsructor said, "Click and treat the silences." On the way home the cyclist happened to follow us again. What luck! Clicker and treat bag IN the car with me!

I did as she directed and I swear she "got it!" so quickly my head was spinning. Now, my dog is clicker trained, so perhaps it happened fast.

Clicker training is NOT bribing. It does not encourage "begging." And you do NOT forever have to "feed everything" they do right. For the rest of your life, you don't end up carrying a bag of treats and a clicker everywhere you go...a misconception many people have.

It's a training method which targets the exact behavior you want. Try it. It WORKS.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by alessadry

Hello,
I am near you, from Sierra Vista. I also have 2 Rotties that are 6 months old. I think your dog just needs to work a lot more on his confidence levels. He needs to go out more and expereince more. Treats work great in helping a dog's confidence. Perhaps enroll him in some obedience trianing. Obstacle courses work wonders to make dogs braver. Have him exposed to as much as possible. People with hats, ombrellas, rain, thunder, trucks, dogs, shopping carts etc. Always praise when he demonstrates to be brave. When he shows fear do not try to reassure him or he may think you are praising him for his fear, rather let him investigate the source of his fear, let a treat drop near the truck he is growling at, or have a man with a hat offer him a treat. He may need a lot of work but it certaintly can be worth it.

Certainly this dog needs help in the confidence building area, but Maggy is stating she desires to use this dog as a Service Dog for her vertigo. The dog has such fear issues he is reacting to vehicle sounds that are not anywhere near him, and he's reacting from the sanctity of his own home (territory). This is not the kind of temperament that is suitable for any kind of service work. Service dogs must be confident and take things in stride, or there is a level of danger involved; for the owner, the public and the dog.

We're not talking about a little startle, according to Maggy's OP, but full blown panic (FLIGHT response) with very poor recovery response. We're also not talking about socializing or imprinting a young puppy; this dog is nearly an adult and far beyond the socialization window.

This is why I asked if perhaps the Mastiff might be better suited for Maggy's requirements.

While you can desensitize and counter condition involuntary (hard wired) behaviors like the fear response, one cannot train out temperament. So... dogs like Maggy's rottweiler, while they can learn to cope a bit better (in many cases), stress will usually trigger these innate responses and be counter productive to the dog's well being (and possibly pose a dangerous situation in public). We cannot reason with a dog and explain to him that he has nothing to fear but fear itself. This type of dog is "special needs" in that the environment he is in will likely have to be controlled at all times to ensure his mental well being.

[miccmill]

While you can desensitize and counter condition involuntary (hard wired) behaviors like the fear response, one cannot train out temperament. So... dogs like Maggy's rottweiler, while they can learn to cope a bit better (in many cases), stress will usually trigger these innate responses and be counter productive to the dog's well being (and possibly pose a dangerous situation in public). We cannot reason with a dog and explain to him that he has nothing to fear but fear itself. This type of dog is "special needs" in that the environment he is in will likely have to be controlled at all times to ensure his mental well being.

I am here to tell you this is a fact. This is what I learned here first a long time ago and it's been reinforced by those who've seen and worked with my dog. And, my dog does NOT react fearfully to every stimulus.

The 15 month old service dogs I've seen are begining the second phase of their training and have lots of pressure put on them in a variety of difficult situations. They are almost beyond reacting to even the most bizarre circumstance.

It's ME who's the service companion when I take my fearful dog out in public.

This is not to say you cannot successfully counter condition a fearful dog to the extent that they are peaceful in their very controlled environment but control is the key and it's work.

[maggy]

I am going to continue this session with Handi-dogs and go from there. I don't think I will be able to use him for a service dog. I plan to put him in agility to see if that helps him. The Mastiff is my son's dog and he will be taking her back in June. She has been with us almost 5 mo. now. She is 16 mos. old and has just started the last month getting aggressive to protect me and the house. She is the one that started getting aggressive with the little dogs and I think Rusty is picking it up from her. I do what to thank you all for all your help. Maggy

[shybird]

From what you say this dog is so frightened of it's own enviroment that is runs from everything. How sad to live like that. A dog that is not even comfortable in it's own home has no business being out in public. You will only be torturing this poor soul further.

[4zenuff]

Originally Posted by shybird

From what you say this dog is so frightened of it's own enviroment that is runs from everything. How sad to live like that. A dog that is not even comfortable in it's own home has no business being out in public. You will only be torturing this poor soul further.

I too have a fearful dog, although he is not a rottie. I have worked with him SO much. He is now able to go in public without "barking at the wind, lol"...in fact he has survived many puppy play groups, group training classes and trips to the park. His latest accomplishment is not barking when the doorbell rings and when people enter our home.

He would rather people not pet him until he is ready and he is only the cuddly type with his family, but I believe that a fearful dog can make great progress, as mine has. He is about 18 months old now and I've had him since he was 8 weeks.

If I wanted my dog to be a service dog, I wouldn't see that happening anytime soon...maybe some years of more intense work. He doesn't seem to be the type, but then again he has been known to amaze me.

The OP is just going to have to take baby steps with this dog.