do i have an aggressive dog?

[sadie's person]

i am a newcomer to this board and i am so glad to see that people are having the same issues and concerns that i have! i've had my rottie - sadie- for about a year. i got her off of the euthanasia list at the shelter where she had been brought in as a cruelty confiscation. since her collar was embedded in her neck and she was severely dehydrated, they were going to put her down- and she was only 6 months old. sadie has turned out to be a huge love sponge and a beautiful specimen of the breed. according to a few breeders that have stopped me on our walks, she is show quality and they would give me the pick of the litter if i were to allow her to breed with their dogs. since she's spayed and i volunteer at the humane society and see all the dogs that are unwanted, this obviously didn't happen. she lives at my house with her 'brother' wrigley (a sheltie mix) and my boyfriend's dog (appears to be some sort of golden mix - she followed me home a few months ago and he kept her). she gets along fine with both of them - in fact, wrigley is the alpha. my problem is that she lunges at other dogs on walks and i can't take her to the dog park. she has graduated from both a puppy manners class and an advanced obdedience class. the puppy manners class was inside and she would growl and lunge at any dog that came past her. the same happened at the advanced class but it was mostly outside so she was better. alot of the advanced class involved working around other dogs (she had to 'down' in a hula hoop while the other dogs walked around her, down-stay on a tic-tac-toe' board where the dogs were the 'x's and 'o's, and part of her graduation requirement was to do a down while 2 dogs walked by within 5 feet). she did ok with all of this as i used distractions (sit, watch, down, etc). if i didn't pay attention, she would try to lunge at them. however, she played fine with them off lead. i have her on a gentle leader which is great and i work the distractions everytime we go on a walk and see other dogs. she still looks at them but she will do what i tell her to do. she also goes to doggie daycare 2x a week where she had advanced class and she is great out there. taking her to the dog park is a disaster waiting to happen. my trainer actually told me to keep my dogs out of the dog parks as a pack mentality tends to develop and it's not a good scene. when we take her to my boyfriend's parents house, she plays fine with their dogs. i apologize for the length of this post but i wanted to give enough background so that people with more experience might be able to tell me if i have an aggressive rottie or if i am dealing with issues stemming from missing out on early socialization. she has been pretty heavily socialized from the time i got her and this behavior started about 8 months ago.

[twnzplusone]

I just wanted to say welcome aboard!! You will find lots of useful advise on these boards. I cannot help you out with the aggressiveness as my rottweiler, Sasha, is only 8 wks. It sounds like you have done a great job with her so far. You might want to add in her age as some might need to know it to give you the best advice. (plus by me responding your post will be bumped to the top again. LOL!!)

[codglvr]

I can't tell you if you have an aggressive dog or not, but there are some warning signs present. Continued obedience classes are necessary. Our girl will tense on a leash, but is fine off. Learning proper leash tensions is a must, your trainer should be able to help you with this. Also, you need to learn the body language that leads to a lunge, of both dogs involved. Then before the lunge can ever happen, you can distract your girl and walk away. You sound like you have a huge heart, and thanks for saving this baby! Stick with the training.:D

[sadie's person]

i can tell when she's going to do it so when i see another dog coming when we are on our walks, we do distraction excercies until the dog passes and then we continue on our way. i want her to associate other dogs heading her way with treats and praise. when off leash dogs have come up to her when she is onlead, she is generally ok. however, i don't press my luck and we continue on our way. i'm just trying to figure out if she is aggressive or has bad manners. she has never had a problem with any of the dogs i take in to my house (fosters and friends' dogs for the weekend) so i desperately want to believe that she is not a 'dog aggressive' rott and her trainer (or is it my trainer :) who is an aggression specialist) believes she is just posturing and trying to control space. that's why he thinks she has a problem on lead inside. interestingly, she has no problem with space with dogs or people in my house. you can kick her out of her sleeping spot while she is sleeping and she doesn't care. this dog, and this breed, have been dealt such a bad lot that i want to make sure that i do right by her. everything she does is maginified because she is a rottie - i knew that going in but to have people cross the street when they see you coming is not fun. she loves people and seems to have developed a special fondness for the elderly and the young. i just have to monitor her exuberance around them since at 18 months she is still a pup!

[RottnKid1]

From your description, it doesn't seem to me that Sadie is actually dog aggressive. You say she plays fine with other dogs off lead. In her obedience class, from what I understand, she wants to lunge at other dogs while in a down/stay. Being on lead or in a down position makes a dog feel more vulnerable. It seems her problem is basically fear based. Yes, you can describe this as fear aggressive, but as I said, it doesn't seem to be aggression in the purest sense of the word. You also said that her collar was was imbedded in her neck when she was rescued. I think it would be a very good guess that she was left tied up. She may have been attacked/tormented by other dogs while tied up - no avenue of escape. This may have led to her fear of other dogs while on lead.

Hopefully, you can help her overcome this problem, but the most important thing is that you train, train, train in order to have complete control of Sadie, no matter what else may be going on or who else may be in her vicinity. You're aware of her problem and you're able to head off the unwanted behavior, so I'd say you're doing an excellent job!

I agree with your trainer about dog parks. Pack mentality is a very real and potentially extremely dangerous thing. I'd steer clear of the dog parks for sure!

You may be able to help Sadie with her fear problem in the following way. (She may never totally overcome the problem, but she may be able to at least imrove). Since you're into obedience classes, you could enlist the help of some of your classmates who have extremely well behaved dogs. Put Sadie in a stand/stay and have people stroll by with their dogs at a distance. If Sadie remains calm, praise her and give her a favorite treat. If she reacts negatively, you'll have to give her at least as stern verbal correction. The trick is to start far enough away from the other dog so as to remain within Sadie's comfort zone. Slowly have your helper pass by closer and closer over time, following the same procedure. Once Sadie is calm and comfortable having a dog pass by her while in a standing positon, start from scratch with Sadie in a sit/stay. Hopefully, in time, Sadie will learn that there's no threat and will eventually remain calm even when a dog walks by while she's in a down/stay. I think it's worth a try, anyway. Best of luck!!!

[sadie's person]

i intern with a dog trainer (the aggression specialist) and somehow, when it's our own dogs, the problem seems maginified. he refers to it as the 'preacher's children' problem - while we are trying to help everyone else, our own obedience falls by the wayside. i just want to give her the best opportunities while understanding her limitations. there are 2 schools of thought : 1) people don't like all people so why do we expect our dogs to love all other dogs (especially when they have been bred to be wary) and 2) if we are truly in control of our dogs, they will obey our every command.

if a client came to me with this problem and they could manage it, i'd be happy. somehow, i want people to react to her like she is a golden retriever but i forget she's a rottie and is a physical representation of all that they have heard. i want to train her for her cgc but this dog lunging thing is her achilles heel.

that said, this is a wonderful breed owned by too many people. i am starting to become fairly involved in the dog world (anyone have any advice for the consultant turned dog-trainer?) and sometimes i feel like this is too much for me! i applaud all of you who take the time to do justice to this awesome breed. my trainer laughs at me because he thinks sadie is a great dog and i personalize too much- he says i have a rottie, not a lab and i need to treat it as such. training an abused rottie is a whole differnet ballgame from training a 10 week old sheltie mix!

[Judi W]

It's not a matter of whether she like or doesn't like the other dogs. Just a people who do not like other people would be advised not to go around shouting threats, the same appiies to your dog. It is ill mannered and does the breed a disservice so your question is on point. I know that I am certainly put off by a dog lunging and barking at me and my dog no matter what the breed, but I am especially concerned if it is a Rottweiler. Not only the image, but if it breaks away there can be a real incident. It also assumes that the other dogs are supposed to ignore your dog. Not a very good assumption and one that irritates the heck out of me. My response in the neighborhood is usually to tell the handler that I suspect my dog is getting pretty fed up with this stuff - that seems to stimulate them to take corrective action.

Sorry, but in dog training, the trainer should represent his/her knowledge. You'll need to get on with the training. It is good manners and demonstrates that you have enough skill to manage your own dog.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by Judi W
It's not a matter of whether she like or doesn't like the other dogs. Just a people who do not like other people would be advised not to go around shouting threats, the same appiies to your dog. It is ill mannered and does the breed a disservice so your question is on point. I know that I am certainly put off by a dog lunging and barking at me and my dog no matter what the breed, but I am especially concerned if it is a Rottweiler. Not only the image, but if it breaks away there can be a real incident. It also assumes that the other dogs are supposed to ignore your dog. Not a very good assumption and one that irritates the heck out of me. My response in the neighborhood is usually to tell the handler that I suspect my dog is getting pretty fed up with this stuff - that seems to stimulate them to take corrective action.

Sorry, but in dog training, the trainer should represent his/her knowledge. You'll need to get on with the training. It is good manners and demonstrates that you have enough skill to manage your own dog.

I must totally agree with Judi's above statement. Unacceptable behavior in a dog, especially unprovoked aggression, is unacceptable behavior no matter what breed of dog you have. I would say that RottnKid1 was right on the money with that she has had some bad experiences previously when tied up or on lead and feels that aggression is the best form of defence in this regard. This is something that you must continue to work on. A good understadning of a dogs defensive drive, stimulus thresholds and critical distances is a must for you. Ask your trainer about these and do a search here for thses terms to help with this.

It is amazing to me that your dog past an advanced obedience class whilst still illustrating this behavior. True obedience very much means control in almost all circumstances (I say "almost all" as any good trainer will understand that no dog is ever proofed obsolutly 100%, but they can be very close) and you should be able to overide your dogs desire to defend herself through this control. If you have good control over the dog teaching the dog that this behavior is indeed unaccpetable should not be that difficult. Once she has leant that what she is illustrating will not work in her favour a good trainer will use techniques that will alter her perception of what she feels towards other dogs from one of fear to one of confidence.

You ask is she an Aggressive dog? The answer is that she can be, all dogs can. Dogs are preditory animals who have the ability to use aggression as a form of communication. This can mean that they use aggression to tell other pack members that they have done wrong (dominant aggression) or to tell another animal, person etc that you are scaring me so move away (fear/defense based aggression) as it appears to be in this case. What your dog shows is a lower threshold level to defesive aggression when on lead as she feels that the ability to run/flea (avoidance is often the best form of defense) from the other dog is taken away from her when she is on lead. Further training will help to teach her that this is unaccpetable and through the use of confidence building exercises and positive motivation her threshold to defesive aggression should be raised. If she no longer feels threatened by these dogs then she will have no need to show aggression towards them.

For the record from what you have desribed I very much doubt that this is in anyway dominance based as this would be far more perpetuated when off lead rather than on.

I hope that this helps,

Mick.

[RottnKid1]

Judi and Mick, excellent advice - as always!!! Now that's four of us who've stressed the importance of training, training, training, because the bottom line is no matter why Sadie behaves the way she does, she must be trained to obey the person on the other end of the leash and not lunge at, bark at, growl at or in any other way antagonize other dogs. Those other owners and dogs have the right to a peaceful walk without fear of attack. Working on the underlying cause of this behavior may help in the overall scheme of things, but training and control are first and foremost.

[spiritkdb]

SP, you have gotten wonderful advice here and it sounds like you are on the right path with your dog. She is very lucky to have you for an owner! Let us know how your training progresses with her. I for one would like to know what methods worked best for you and if you had any lightbulb moments with this issue. Sounds like the dog parks are out of the question for now, but also sounds like Sadie gets a lot of good attention and time otherwise. Good luck!

[sadie's person]

thanks for all the advice. she is definitely a work in progress and i am continuing to work with her. it's been pretty hot here this summer but now that it's cooling down, i'm going to start taking her to regular parks with leashed dogs. i'm going to begin working her at a distance and when she's comfortable at that distance, move her in a bit, etc. this will probably take a few weekends but that's ok. i took her to petsmart 3 days in a row, at increasingly busy times and worked on some excercises (sits, downs, etc). on the third day, she was able to walk right past a dog adoption with no problem. i do not consider her lunging to be acceptable behavior (in any dog - but with a rottie it does appear to be more serious than if a terrier did it) and that's why i'm working to correct it. i wouldn't feel very comfortable to be walking my sheltie and see someone who is 5'4 and 100 pounds have a lunging 90# rottie! some days it's just frustrating as we've been working on this for what seems like a long time. however, i realize that we have to move at her pace, not mine.

[kekaufman]

I have this problem with my Dixie (2.5 year old rescued) I certainly do not have the problem under control as yet, but I find if I put her in the sit/stay position when I see another dog coming (I also move her to the side); and believe it or not speak to her in a calm loving tone about the other dog, they walk by with just a Rottie stare from her. If I omit the conversation part she will more times than not lunge. I do not think it is her, my trainer swears by soft loving conversation at certain times, esp. where fear is involved and it usually works, I have other examples of how it has modified her behavior. I of course can and do give her a resounding NO!! if she disobeys, but that is ineffective prior to bad behavior.

[RottnKid1]

sadie's person,

You are to be commended for working with Sadie to overcome this problem! It sounds as though you've already made some progress. Keep up the good work!!!

kekaufman,

You, too, deserve credit for the work you're doing with your dog! You're being alert and basically averting your dog from reacting negatively before she has the chance to react and get "out of control." You're keeping her attention focused on you and speaking softly makes a lot of sense as she has to pay closer attention than she would if you were yelling - yelling would also tend to increase her anxiety. The soft voice is also probably quite calming for her. It's not really so much the words you're using, but the way you're speaking.

Just as an interesting note about speaking softly, something I was taught while working for the police dept., this method can be very helpful when dealing with a person who's schizophrenic. Speaking in a calm and soft tone of voice requires them to pay closer attention in order to hear what you're saying. Paying closer attention to the person speaking softly requires that they focus more on you rather than focusing on their own inner demons.