Tired of my dog acting "tough"

[sweetlee]

Is it hard(er) to train a dog to quit doing things that are instictive? such as being protective.
My dog is a real sweetheart, to everyone. But lately he is driving me nuts with the growling and barking at people walking down the sidewalk. If we are out for a walk, he doesn't make a sound at people approaching, or other dogs. But when looking out the window, he sounds totally mean and vicious. When the mailman comes he sounds like he would tear him to shreds if he could, but when we are sitting out on the porch together and the mailman comes on the porch, Dodge wags his tail and wants a pet from the guy. He also growls when we are in the car at people walking down the street. If there is a dog involved, he does a mean bark/growl and then starts whining like he would love to go play.
I have tried redirecting him with treats, ball, whatever and it works until next time. I have tried telling him enough, leave it, made him go to his spot, or sit by my feet. I have even gotten in between him and the window and claimed that space as my own and made him back off. Then he does the "under his breath" barking, thinking maybe I won't hear it.
He is the most obedient dog in the world except for this.
He gets plenty of walks, ball playing, mental games. We are going to another advanced obedience class in a couple weeks, just to keep up the socialization.
I don't mind the warning really, but when I say thanks, and that's enough, that should be the end of it.
Does anyone else have this problem? I swear Dodge would not hurt anyone, if he were outside I am pretty convinced that anyone walking by would be greeted with tail wags.
He just turned two and is neutered, and otherwise very well trained.

sharon

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by sweetlee

Then he does the "under his breath" barking, thinking maybe I won't hear it.

Gary does this too and it really ticks me off. If he barks at something and I tell him quiet, he will somewhat listen in the aspect that he will make his barks to follow very quiet. Little grunt barks under his breath that you could only hear if you were pretty close to him. AAH!

He is great for everything else except for this one problem. He just seems to be so thick headed and stubborn. I feel your pain!

I know there is huge controversy about using squirt bottles, but in all honesty that is what I have been doing and it seems pretty effective at least for indoors. I will say quiet. If any barks follow after my warning, a squirt is sure to come, even if he just grunts. I chose this method because with Gary redirection, tell him leave it, making him go to bed or move, didn't work as well as I would have liked them to.

[Weltterr]

Are these dogs being rewarded consistently for being quiet? Are you practicing quiet at other times, or just waiting until the dog is upset. Yes, the behavior you want can definitely be trained. When currrent training doesn't work, you really have to look at yourself. What are you not doing? What else could you be doing? Are you giving the dog enough time to understand what is expected of him?

Two year old males are often insecure - if that is the case, it is something you can help him grow out of. Sure thing though, your frustration will not help with the training, it just confuses your dog. Stay neutral, stay non-emotional. Keep on training.

[poohbearsmom]

Please get into training with someone who is well versed in Working Dogs, Operant Conditioning and Classical Conditioning techniques.

Counter conditioning behaviors like this that have been rewarded (rewards don't have to be active and from you) takes time. Redirecting your dog once or twice doesn't cut it.

You need to gain a greater understanding of distractions, dog behavior and hone your own handling skills, as timing is EVERYTHING, especially with a reactive dog. Consistency from you is very important as well. It's most likely that this is simply reactive behavior than "protective" behavior as you are reading it.

If you have trouble researching trainers in your area, perhaps we can help you find a few to interview.

In the meantime, exercising him in your yard might be a better option than allowing this behavior to escalate further, and risking a mishap.

[sweetlee]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

In the meantime, exercising him in your yard might be a better option than allowing this behavior to escalate further, and risking a mishap.

I don't understand why exercising him in the yard would be necessary. When we are out on leash, all is GREAT. It is when he looks out the window, or the car window that we have a problem.
When we go out for walks, Dodge is super behaved. The people that don't cross the street or step around us, comment on what a nice, (and beautiful) boy he is. Even a couple of people who have had their little dogs off leash run up to us, have told me that I have a very well behaved dog. The people in the small pet stores we visit and at the vet love him. He always is polite to the the other animals there including cats.
We are going back to school May 1st actually. And Dodge will no doubt bark and growl at the other dogs or people when we pull up, and then when I let him out of the car, all will be fine.
I am REALLY limited here on trainers. We use a trainer who works with positive reenforcement, and Dodge is the class superstar when we go. She has used a squirt bottle on ONE dog who kept barking during class. but he was a lab and thought that was great fun trying to "catch" the water.
I guess maybe I should pull up a chair, sit in front of the window and reward him with treats when he comes to check things out and quiets when told.
My trainer comes highly recommended from the shelters, the rescues, and the vets, and other than the AKC classes,she is it. I will try and visit with her privately at some point, although she is ALWAYS in class it seems. Being pretty much the only dog training center around she keeps very busy.
I am also going to do some research here,and try and find the difference between reactive and protective behavior? I figured it was protectiveness because it is only the house or the car. But he KNOWS this is MY house on everything else. That is why I am a bit stumped.
It makes sense though, if her were protective of me, he would probably make a big deal of people coming near me when we are out and about.

Thanks everyone,

Sharon

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by sweetlee

I don't understand why exercising him in the yard would be necessary. When we are out on leash, all is GREAT. It is when he looks out the window, or the car window that we have a problem.
When we go out for walks, Dodge is super behaved. The people that don't cross the street or step around us, comment on what a nice, (and beautiful) boy he is. Even a couple of people who have had their little dogs off leash run up to us, have told me that I have a very well behaved dog. The people in the small pet stores we visit and at the vet love him. He always is polite to the the other animals there including cats.
We are going back to school May 1st actually. And Dodge will no doubt bark and growl at the other dogs or people when we pull up, and then when I let him out of the car, all will be fine.
I am REALLY limited here on trainers. We use a trainer who works with positive reenforcement, and Dodge is the class superstar when we go. She has used a squirt bottle on ONE dog who kept barking during class. but he was a lab and thought that was great fun trying to "catch" the water.
I guess maybe I should pull up a chair, sit in front of the window and reward him with treats when he comes to check things out and quiets when told.
My trainer comes highly recommended from the shelters, the rescues, and the vets, and other than the AKC classes,she is it. I will try and visit with her privately at some point, although she is ALWAYS in class it seems. Being pretty much the only dog training center around she keeps very busy.
I am also going to do some research here,and try and find the difference between reactive and protective behavior? I figured it was protectiveness because it is only the house or the car. But he KNOWS this is MY house on everything else. That is why I am a bit stumped.
It makes sense though, if her were protective of me, he would probably make a big deal of people coming near me when we are out and about.

Thanks everyone,

Sharon

Sorry, when I read your post early this morning, I read it that this behavior was while you were on the walks. My bad.

This window behavior is barrier aggression, and it has to do with territoriality.

Every time someone comes into view and he barks them "away", he is being rewarded for his antics. Since I like my dogs to alert me that someone is approaching, I will generally allow one or two woofs, but I do not allow them to get carried away. With a dog that behaves dangerously at the window, the woofs are not allowed at first, and we boot camp it as described below. I don't like to "correct" a dog for barking - I WANT the news from the dog, but if the dog has taken the behavior to frenzy mode, leash corrections might be necessary to redirect him onto you. Remember, it's always easier to get a dogs attention BEFORE he's in full blown drive. So....

You might indeed try hanging out with him (have some extra yummy treats at hand) on leash at the window. Relax and watch TV or read a book. When he sees an "intruder", go ahead and divert his attention to you, call him into another room, and then ask for a known behavior; i.e. sit or down... I use "down" because the dog can't move as fast from that position. Reward him well, then release him and take him back to your perch.

After you've rinsed and repeated this to the point that he happily goes with you (without any help from the leash), then try redirecting him to a different spot in the same room. After you've practiced this, and Dodge can keep his attention and focus on you, then allow him (slowly!) to get a little more involved with the "intruders" by allowing him to "say hello", but redirect him BEFORE he gets worked up to the point of no return. As he succeeds, start extinguishing the treats, and perhaps change to a toy or tactile praise.

When you are attempting to teach him good manners at the window, you do not want to allow him access to the window when you are not present, or he will undo any work you've done by getting the self reward. Hope that makes sense.

I have one girl that is simply not allowed loose in the house when we aren't at home. I can easily control her behavior at the front window in my presence, but I dare not trust her not to go through the window if I'm not here. Something for you to think about. The other dogs are territorial, but they don't bounce on the window risking a catastrophe like Miss S does.

Hope this helps.

[Nishasmom]

This is something I have been doing; it works great. I learned it here, but not sure from whom...

When Nisha barks, I say "okay" or "thanks" then take her to her bed and give her a treat. I want her to "alert" me, but not be obsessive. After a while of doing this, she started going straight to her bed and waited for me to bring her treat!!

If she gets up, and starts barking again; I take her to her bed, and tell her to "down-stay" until the people have passed (or maybe 5 min.); this time, with no reward. If she gets up and doesn't bark, I let her continue to watch the dogs/people outside.

[SABELLESMOM]

The behavior you have described is self rewarding. You accepted it, erroneously labeling it as instinctive and protective, and took no pains to make him to stop. Now, you have a problem.

The behavior is self rewarding in that, he's heard something and barked, growled and acted like a vicious deranged animal... then the "danger" went away! Hey! If I bark and terrorize, I can make it go away! Do you see how it's self rewarding?

YOU have a long haul ahead of you, as by now he's already learned, In his mind at least, barking works! He can chase anything off by barking.

You must begin to reward any moment of silence. The best way is to get a clicker and some high value diced treats (leftover steak, pork chop, chicken breast, cheese, hot dogs). You can have him leashed to you so you catch it every time, but it's not totally necessary.

Reward any silence with an imediate (cues him in to WHAT he's doing at that moment) click, followed by a treat. You will pique his interest. Repeat for any moment of silence you get. Remain calm. "Mmmmmm! What do I do to get more of those treats?"

Next session: Add the word "stop" or "enough" or "no more." Then click and reward any silence you get. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Don't give up! He's smart enough to overcome this uncontrolled idiocy. You CAN do it. Be consistant, and very careful to click the second you hear any S-I-L-E-N-C-E.

Told the story before: Rave became perturbed over a motorcyclist with a mirrored helmet. She'd had motorcycles follow us before. But this one had a mirror and it reflected and shone all about, so she barked! For what seemed like 10 minutes I could not get her to stop.

I arrived at class frustrated, headachy, and miserable. My instructor, said, "Just click the silences." (We do our agility training with a clicker) It made perfect sense! That very night...the same cyclist was behind us again! What luck! I did it and had her attention in the first click. My dog is completely clicker trained, so don't expect as quick a response. Within 4-5 click/treats she knew what I wanted.

It may take weeks. But you CAN change obnoxious behavior. It takes consistancy, and determination, and a right method. This method works because: 1) It targets the correct behavior. 2) It rewards the correct behavior. 3) It makes the dog figure it out. Dogs learn better if they have to think. And, 4) It substitutes an acceptable behavior for one that is not.

[smileygirl]

I don't know if this will work, but it's a suggestion. My two like to peer out the front window as well. Now with the weather getting nice EVERYONE is out walking ect., no problem with the walkers in the sreet pretty much a simple "thank you" and they happily follow me awat from the window(and door with a window surround). Now the little non-parented children that the word "respect" has never been uttered in their house appartenly, running and hanging out on my driveway...becoming an issue! Anyway, the solution for us, we put a gate in the front window...mine will not go near a gate. Why? I have no idea...they were never gated, we always simply leaned a plastic baby gate to keep them in our room at night when they were younger. Never a need to secure it, gate up they will not approach. When we put it in the window, they will look over it but not get too close. Like I said I have no idea why, but it works here. Good Luck, I've followed your posts since you got Dodge. He sounds like a great boy! Tina

[Snow]

Glad that I checked out this thread, thanks for posting Sweetlee :) We are in the same boat, with a 2 year old girl, who has decided not only that her house and her yard is her territory but also her immediate neighborhood! I am working with her to manage her out of this, and the posted help will be muchly appreciated thx!
I noticed too, that she seems to react more so when we are out on our walks to any dog that barks at her... her trainer says that this may not be so aggressive as I thought but more so adopting the protecting role - apparently I have messed up and somehow allowed her to think that she needs to protect me (as well as my fiancee and our pug!).... my mistake :) am still learning.
I'll use your advice, guys, thanks!

[sweetlee]

Thanks to all of you,you have come up with some good ideas. I know the barking and the people who keep walking are a self rewarding behavior and will be hard to break. It isn't because I haven't tried and just let Dodge carry on. I will try all your ideas at home, Dodge is a very smart boy, and like I said super obedient in every other way.
The car may be another story, hard to treat, click or anything else when you are driving. too bad I can't just reason with him and let him know if he barks at people or animals he doesn't get to go next time.
Just today, when we went to the vet to get Dodge's bordatella, we pulled up and there was a HUGE black horse in front of the door getting an xray. Of course Dodge growled and barked at it, until we got out of the car, then he was just curious as to what that was. As usual he was the perfect patient there, kind to the other dogs and the people in the waiting room. Even the cat.
Snow, good luck, keep updating and I will do the same. Maybe at 2 years our dogs are just "maturing" and want to let the world know they are here. I have read too much on perceived threats, and we need to let them know we will handle it, but thanks for the warning just the same.
Tina, yes Dodge is a super good boy, and except for this he has only gotten better and better.
So here's to breaking his one bad habit.

Thanks again everyone,

Sharon

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by sweetlee

Thanks to all of you,you have come up with some good ideas. I know the barking and the people who keep walking are a self rewarding behavior and will be hard to break. It isn't because I haven't tried and just let Dodge carry on. I will try all your ideas at home, Dodge is a very smart boy, and like I said super obedient in every other way.
The car may be another story, hard to treat, click or anything else when you are driving. too bad I can't just reason with him and let him know if he barks at people or animals he doesn't get to go next time.
Just today, when we went to the vet to get Dodge's bordatella, we pulled up and there was a HUGE black horse in front of the door getting an xray. Of course Dodge growled and barked at it, until we got out of the car, then he was just curious as to what that was. As usual he was the perfect patient there, kind to the other dogs and the people in the waiting room. Even the cat.
Snow, good luck, keep updating and I will do the same. Maybe at 2 years our dogs are just "maturing" and want to let the world know they are here. I have read too much on perceived threats, and we need to let them know we will handle it, but thanks for the warning just the same.
Tina, yes Dodge is a super good boy, and except for this he has only gotten better and better.
So here's to breaking his one bad habit.

Thanks again everyone,

Sharon

Remember, the leash makes it easier to reinforce things consistently at first.

[keller27]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

This is something I have been doing; it works great. I learned it here, but not sure from whom...

When Nisha barks, I say "okay" or "thanks" then take her to her bed and give her a treat. I want her to "alert" me, but not be obsessive. After a while of doing this, she started going straight to her bed and waited for me to bring her treat!!

If she gets up, and starts barking again; I take her to her bed, and tell her to "down-stay" until the people have passed (or maybe 5 min.); this time, with no reward. If she gets up and doesn't bark, I let her continue to watch the dogs/people outside.

Khori started doing the barking out the upper bedroom window at things that he sees. He never barked like this until he turned about 3 years old. When he does it, I just tell him, "momma will check it out". I go in there and look through the window and tell him who it is, and he is fine with it and stops barking. I usually just have him come into another room with me. He only gives out 2-3 low barks at whatever it is, but I don't want him to think that is okay and display more barking. I am consistent that I go in there even if it is only 2-3 barks. He knows that I will go in there to check it out, that I will take care of it and he doesn't have too.