She DOES know when she has done wrong

[natesmom14]

"My dog knows he's in trouble for pooping in the hallway!"...
errrrrrrrrr... no! The dog sees a subtle change in master's demeanor, and knows the roof is about to fall on him, as he's been punished before when he has seen this change, so he cowers... soliciting for master to take it easy on him.

I copied this text from the behavior sticky thread- I am not trying to single this one out as I HAVE heard this said many times- from trainers, on the forums, etc., just trying to show an example of what I was referring to...

I have a recent example of how this is just NOT true, that she DOES know when she does something wrong and am wondering if I am alone in my thinking of this?

I came home the other day from running an errand, I walked up the front stairs and looked in the little side window as I usually do as I start to unlock the front door. Rather than standing at the top of the stairs w/ tail wagging as she normally does to greet us, Nikki was slinking around with her belly nearly to the floor. At this point it was completely impossible for her to see any remote change in my demeanor as a) I am still outside- the door hasn't even been opened and, so, b)I had no idea that she did anything "wrong" whatsoever at this point. It turned out she had pooped on the floor down by the laundry room.

Lest you think she's expecting a beating for it and that's why she's having such a strong reaction without our presence, that is simply not true- we only reprimand if she is caught in the act (which she occasionally has been when chewing a toy- and then we simply say a firm "no" and take it from her) but as she has only pooped in the house when we are gone, we don't reprimand well after the fact, we simply clean it up. We also try to make sure we don't set her up to "fail"- ie: kids are warned that all toys must be picked up before we leave or it is at their own risk that they might lose something and we try to take her out and make sure she goes before we leave the house (but I guess sometimes her breakfast hasn't "hit bottom" yet before we have to leave the house and that's what causes her to go when we are gone...).

Lastly she is overall a very calm and well-behaved dog so incidents like these rarely happen anymore now that she's a bit older (4 years) anyway- but something caused her to realize that what she did in the house is something that we wouldn't be happy about...any thoughts?

[spidey]

I believe that dogs can learn to associate their actions with subsequent human behaviours (after all, that's how we train them), but "wrong" is a moral judgment, and dogs are amoral (they do not follow a moral code). The problem with thinking a dog knows when something is "wrong", is that it ascribes a whole set of reasoning and moralistic behaviour to an animal which we have no reason to think actually follows that set of reasoning or moralistic behaviour, and that can affect how we treat and train our dogs (it is not helpful in terms of behaviour modification to think of dogs knowing a difference between "right" and "wrong"). The dog may know that you are unhappy when something unusual happens (like eating the garbage or pooping in the house, or whatever), but that does not mean that the dog "knows when it has done wrong", there is a large and unnecessary (and potentially harmful) layer of assumption between "dog has learned to associate a behaviour with a human reaction" and "dog acts "guilty" because it "knows it has done wrong"".

[natesmom14]

Okay, I see what you are saying and that makes total sense. I agree that she has learned to base it on our reaction- I am not trying to give her human reasoning and conscience as I agree with what you are saying about that. I was trying to argue the point that they DO remember from past experience rather than just base their "slinking around" on their human's change in demeanor when that human spots what has been done- as I wasn't even able to know that ANYTHING was amiss until I saw her slinking around through the window (referring to the wording in the above quote).

[fast91stealth]

Our boy will go to his cage when he has done wrong. We always know to look to see what he did when he is unexpectingly in his cage. I know he doesn't have rational thought or a conscience about it otherwise he wouldn't have done it to begin with, but he also does this all on his own without us even knowing he had done anything wrong yet. I suppose if something happens enough he just learns to associate.

[tla0126]

Same with my Beau. He always looks up at me with these PITIFUL eyes before I even know something happened... Then I look around and figure out he tore up a paper plate or something.... It's hard to be mad at them when they seem to already have punished themselves, ha ha.

[webangel2b]

TLA - love the way you put that.

Hard to be angry when them when they seem to have punished themselves.

I agree - dixie avoids the area where she's done wrong. One of her favorite things to do bad is to get tissues out of the trash (sometimes this is VERY bad). Then she proceeds to tear it into little pieces all over the floor. When she does it, she won't enter that room, and if you call her in there - she's low to the ground trying to hide.. it's funny. I've even tried calling her as if nothing is wrong, same thing happens.

Living with such an intelligent critter teaches us more about being simply human. We all make mistakes, but freting about them won't take it away. A quick sorry, and then moving on makes a lot more sense.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by natesmom14

Okay, I see what you are saying and that makes total sense. I agree that she has learned to base it on our reaction- I am not trying to give her human reasoning and conscience as I agree with what you are saying about that. I was trying to argue the point that they DO remember from past experience rather than just base their "slinking around" on their human's change in demeanor when that human spots what has been done- as I wasn't even able to know that ANYTHING was amiss until I saw her slinking around through the window (referring to the wording in the above quote).

Yes, dogs have memory, or they would not be trainable, they would not remember us, or have the ability to build the social bonds that they do..

In instances like you describe, it is very much as spidey has very eloquently stated; this is an association response.

And I also concur with spidey; They do not, however, possess the emotional morals or social ethics that we do, otherwise they'd be pushing their food bowl to us and asking us if we'd like to share.

[Bucky's Mom]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

They do not, however, possess the emotional morals or social ethics that we do, otherwise they'd be pushing their food bowl to us and asking us if we'd like to share.

This reminds me of a long ago poster who stated (with regards to the issue of "knowing" ) If you think your dog thinks like a person - offer them what is left of your steak and cheese sub - they will for sure take it - next time - offer them the whole sub and see which part they save for you

[natesmom14]

"My dog knows he's in trouble for pooping in the hallway!"...
errrrrrrrrr... no! The dog sees a subtle change in master's demeanor, and knows the roof is about to fall on him, as he's been punished before when he has seen this change, so he cowers... soliciting for master to take it easy on him.

My whole point of the post was saying that the dog is NOT only reacting in response to the master's change in demeanor- impossible if the master hasn't even seen the mess yet- that it CAN react/remember based on past incidences.

It's so hard to put in to a post exactly what you want to express- I wasn't trying to get in to a true breakdown of what a dog "thinks" as far as right and wrong (maybe I should have worded my title "She does know when she has done wrong based on previous scoldings and not just by our current response" or something to that effect)- I was just trying to basically point out that, as was stated in the last post, dogs are trainable, they remember and bond with us, etc. yet I HAVE heard NUMEROUS times that dogs ONLY respond "guiltily" to a misdeed based on the owner's current reaction of the misdeed- making it sound as though even though they have memory for training and such and many learn and remember even very complicated commands, they somehow only react to our mood as an indicator that they messed up and have no memory of what an "undesirable behavior" is. Yes, that may have been the case initially- they don't know the first time that dragging your shoe out of the closet and chewing it up is something you don't like until you teach them- but the next time they drag the shoe out of the closet and chew it up, they can remember that you didn't like that last time (though they might not have the impulse control to NOT do it)- they don't need to see your change in demeanor this time to know you won't be pleased. They may not understand WHY you won't be pleased, after all, chewing a shoe is great fun- but they know you don't like them doing it for some reason...