general lack of canine behaviour

[lblax]

recently there was a thread about a florida attack, i do not want to get the dicussion going again as the thread was closed and regardless of who did this or that it was a horrible thing. i'm starting this thread because so many misconceptions by owners of what they believe about there dogs is one of the reason that there are attacks. following are a few quotes from that thread that i would like to resond to

don't think it is acceptable for your dog to attack anyone who doesn't pose a threat. Shouldn't a dog of sound mind be able to tell that a ten year old boy is not "threatening" their environment?? Sadly, if this happened w/ my dog (which it NEVER would); I would make the choice to euthanize her . Mauling a child is NEVER acceptable in my book

dogs are not human and do not think like humans and dogs do not distinguish between adults/children they see them as not dogs period so an attack on a human is just that ,an attack on a human. here is one of the most dangerous statemants an owner can make

Sadly, if this happened w/ my dog (which it NEVER would);

regardless of the tempermant of the dog it can happen at any time and anyone who doesnt believe that there large breed working dogs are dangerous are mis informed.

the next comment worth looking at

Obelix: I am sure you are far more experienced in Rottweilers than I am; however, my opinion of the topic remains the same. I do not think a 10 yr old child hopping over the fence warrants a vicious attack. Shouldn't a dog take time to evaluate the situation; determine if they are in need of defending? What if the child had knocked on the door and walked into the backyard? Are you saying if someone enters your property w/o you, your dog is warranted to attack?? I just think that this goes against what I know of the breed.

dogs simply do not sit back and evaluate situation and again the child thing makes no differance, again these dogs may have if running free played with these children. and while i have 2 very strong good tempermant dogs that i feel safe bringing anyone in my home of any age and let them play or whatever if someone comes into there territory univited and not familier to the dogs they would more in likely be attacked. ive done everything physically possible (as everyone should) to keep the dogs contained and everyone out.

the third point

Temperament
The Rottweiler is basically a calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. A Rottweiler is self-confident and responds quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment. He has an inherent desire to protect home and family, and is an intelligent dog of extreme hardness and adaptability with a strong willingness to work, making him especially suited as a companion, guardian and general all-purpose dog.

actuallythe dogs in question probably fit this to a tee once a fence is breached the wait and see attitude is done. what makes large working breeds dangerous is there owner and sadly enough it isnt usually a lack of training its lack of general canine behaviour by the owner by putting human emotion/thinking processes/and over trust in your animals is the danger. many if not most maulings start out as a non aggresive game with the dog. dogs have drives and this is what they live by period for example lets consider a dog that hasnt been all worked up with outside stimulas just walking down the street or in your yard the dog runs up to someone several things can happen at this point , nothing happens or lets say a person freaks and runs prey drive kicks in and now its a game the ddog will catch you even at this point the calming demeaner of the prey can avoid futher action but people reacte by running pushing kicking which is big fun for a dog , the mauling starts because the dog is determined to catch and hold its prey. the hardder the person trys to get away the harder the dog fights and the more fun it is for the dog.

im going to close this that the real dangers to our breed are owners that belive the following
my dog would never bite anyone
putting human emotions into animals
and believing that dogs actually reason out situations

in closing i think we have the start of a good discussion here but please DO NOT BRING UP THE FLORIDA SITUATION BECAUSE THAT IS CLOSED FOR DISCUSSION

[Nishasmom]

Okay, okay...lesson learned !!

Just to add...I would NEVER say that my dog wouldn't bite (she is after all, a dog). I did say (perhaps ignorantly) she would not attack a non-threatening person.

As for putting human emotions on my dog, I don't feel like I did that. Maybe I was expecting too much from my dog. I would expect her to wait and see if this the person in question poses a threat to her or her environment. Perhaps that is a too much to ask of a dog . I pray that my dog will never be tested in this way.

[Ayoka]

Dogs ARE dogs and it's hard to be honest with yourself about your own dog's behaviour and potential to do harm.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

Okay, okay...lesson learned !!

Just to add...I would NEVER say that my dog wouldn't bite (she is after all, a dog). I did say (perhaps ignorantly) she would not attack a non-threatening person.

As for putting human emotions on my dog, I don't feel like I did that. Maybe I was expecting too much from my dog. I would expect her to wait and see if this the person in question poses a threat to her or her environment. Perhaps that is a too much to ask of a dog . I pray that my dog will never be tested in this way.

this is no way directed at you . you just happened to post many of the beliefs that many owners have.

As for putting human emotions on my dog, I don't feel like I did that

well you didnt as far as maybe emotions like we think of then but stating that dogs actually have complex thought processes and think through situations is something humansa are only capable of. not that dogs dont think because they do when you condition and train certain scenarios and stimulas the dog thinks through these things he has been taught and reacts with the proper decision. but no reasoning capabilities

[Obelix]

I only can say you are absolutely right.But this changes nothing on the fact that ignorant people will keep dogs and that these people will probably get bitten.Nothing we can do about that exept:answer questions and try to limit the damage by educating these who are willing to listen.In an other thread I asked if it was worth all the effort and time, and the answers were pretty clear:yes it is.Sometimes when reading some posts my toes will cringle and my hair raise by such stupidity and lack of knowledge of the BASICS of dog behaviour.Some people use a dog as substitute for the human compagnonship and threat the dog as human.A lot of people want to keep a dog but few want to educate themselves of what a dog really is.Can you blame them??.A lot of hearsay and irrelevant "information" from family or friends will do.So the lucky ones (tor them and us) will land on sites like these and ask.With patience we try ato explain and with pain we see some off them get their beliefs.But at least we tried.

[cally01]

Great post Iblax :)

I feel a majority of mauling attacks are due to predatory drift not guarding behavior. When you read about a mauling attack it is normally against someone who is weaker such as children, women etc.

I went through a horrible time with my Rottweiler Athena when I first rescued her. She had been left tied in a backyard with (to my knowledge) no socialization for her 1st year of life.

She is smart, sweet and wonderful, but, I learned a lot about predatory drives and how even wonderful sweet well trained dogs can go into predatory drift over certain actions or noises etc. I worked with an animal behaviorist who helped me a great deal to understand drives etc. Athena attacked me due to predatory drift twice when I first rescued her, these could have been much more serious had I not been a strong girl who could wrestle her to the ground. I have seen first hand a sweet, loving well trained smart dog go into predatory drift and I started learning what would trigger this...for example running towards her in a non confident manner, waving arms, high pitched screams or getting too excited etc. She still tries to herd the other dogs in the house hold and will display predatory drift towards them at times as well. It's neat to see how the other house hold dogs react, as soon as they see Athena go into predatory drift (slight drop of the head and standing stock still) the other dog stops moving and freezes. Athena will stare at them for quite awhile until they move then she will run after them and try to herd them. This is why children are taught to freeze and stand like a tree around a strange dog as for some reason they will not chase until the prey object moves it's a neat motor pattern eye stalk.

Athena is much adored by my Vet as you can do anything to her and she trusts me and the Vet (for example playing with porcupines I had to pull quills from her mouth, face etc she just sat there and held her mouth open). So she is not aggressive per say, but, some actions will put her into predatory drift which is dangerous. But, these drives would probably be a bonus if she were a working dog. I learned a lot about drives and behavioral conformation over the past few years. Even good dogs can be so called unpredictable at times, but, if you know your breed and the drives and the socialization they received they really are not unpredictable at all. It's all about learning to direct and channel these drives and realizing that this breed was at one time a working dog with enhanced drives to do their job. Sometimes dogs with intense drives can be horrible pets lol

I went through a lot with Athena, but, I love her so much more because she taught me so much. If I had just continued having perfect dogs all my life I wouldn't have understood how predatory drift can be so dangerous if the dog has not imprinted or been socialized properly. She is now 8 1/2 years old and my perfect little snuggle bun, but, I never kid myself about her drives and her lack of socialization with some species and especially small dogs.

[lblax]

youve explained pretty well preditory drift basically its a hieghtened prey drive. but for the most part a dog only goes into the dangerous actual out to kill preditory drift with animals that are less than half its size and its more common in dogs that have no socialization. in your case when she attacked you i would assume it was more of a weak nerve issue brought on by her lack of socialization and who knows what else happened to her before you obtained her. but either way i believe you through fairness/calmness/ and consistancy in training overcame a nerve issue in this dog not many people accomplish this.

[cally01]

Iblax I would never have accomplished Athena's issues or over come this without the help of a wonderful animal behaviorist. I was very confused and didn't understand why she had attacked me when I first got her. It was a scary time.

I was going through a rough time in my personal life back then and her issues took my mind off things and I was able to focus 98% of my attention on Athena. I was pretty close at one time to sending her to a Rottweiler rescue. We had already made arrangements for her to go as my Sister did not think I was a skilled enough dog owner to handle Athena's issues. But, I'm glad I kept her, one look in those trusting brown eyes and I knew I couldn't let her go and our bond is very tight as we grew together...I'm getting all choked up. :)

Athena still has issues with small dogs, she has however imprinted on cats and she is very good around all cats including out own cat. I wouldn't trust her around children tho.

So, I never over came all her issues, but, I did learn to redirect her drives to objects and can get her to look at me if I feel there is something that will put her into predatory drift. I avoid many situations, for example the dog park is off limits for Athena lol At the Vet clinic I make sure there are no dogs in the examination room when I come in and I have a basket muzzle on her in public areas. The best part is she never directs predatory drift towards humans any longer...thank goodness...but, one never knows so I am still very careful with her.

Iblax, thank you so much for the compliments :) That really made me feel good about myself :)

[RottieGirl86]

Thanks for this thread. I had missed the other one and had not heard of predatory drift before.

I did a search on yahoo and it was very informative. http://www.homewardtrails.org/resour...0in%20Dogs.pdf

My female has a huge prey drive. My male looks to her for cues, you can see his little doggie head thinking and watching her. Redirection works almost 95% of the time.

I am very fortunate my Athena was mine since 10 weeks old, so I know her and can easily impose my will over hers. But, that's a bond built solidly on daily interaction for 6 years.

Overall, I think the issue is 2 fold:

1) People have no dog sense. Parents are too distracted or lazy, whatever to teach their kids how to behave.

2) Dog owners are too lazy. We humanize the dogs, so we expect certain behavior patterns and that's not fair to the dog.

While I agree that dogs do have 'wild dog' aspects in their behavior ( like the article I linked mentioned), domestic animals are the weaker ones and will seek to be in our pack. imo -10,000 years of social evloution between our 2 species does have an effect on our ability to work together.

So what I use:

A) tip given here long ago and I use daily - dog barks at stranger - I will wave and say 'hi' in a very pleasant voice. My dog stops barking because I have told them it's not a threat. I want my dog to alert me to strangers , so I do not discourage barking , but I expect it to stop once I let them know it's ok. Now a cat, they are convinced they are evil and we're working on that.

B) Thankfully NIFIL has saved me a lot of aggrivation. To paraphrase something else I read here long ago - Use your noodle and outhink the dog.

C) Don't set dog up for failure. With that - if dog is weak willed/nerved, then deal with it and don't have a ticking time bomb.

[alice's mommy]

I'm glad you posted this....while I don't think Arthur is human, I do see how it is easy to put human thoughts/emotions on him, even subconciously. He's great with myself, my kids, my family....but that doesn't mean that I understand what it's LIKE to be a dog. I think I am incredibly ignorant on the ways that dogs think, but I feel I learn something new every day on this site. :) As I learn, I will continue to have him in training and hope the MY brain can learn as fast as his can.

[princesssnichole]

Well said. Bravo! I was that ignorant owner. Placing human emotions on my dog. That was a great way to explain the prey drive in human form. You are very smart. I haven't always agreed with you but this is superb.

[cally01]

RottieGirl your dogs name is Athena as well :) how neat!!! I love that name for a Rottweiler I forget which Goddess Athena. :)

As far as prey drives from what I understand and what I have studied the drives for a normal natural dog are very low key. For an example natural dogs which still do live in our world and are perhaps the forefathers of many of our purebred dogs have little to no predatory drives which are suited to live amongst villages of humans and to be perfect scavengers. When studied these village dogs do not chase children, people, chickens, cats etc. They will protect their feeding areas, never pack and live semi solitary lives. I believe dogs only pack somewhat like Coyotes depending on weather they need to hunt large game etc.

So that being said dogs that displayed certain drives and motor patterns were selected to do certain jobs for man. So, basically a dog that showed intense eye stalk, chase drives were used for hunting, herding, droving etc and the owners with little knowledge of breeding created dogs with the perfect behavioral conformation just by breeding a good herding dog to a good herding dog - good hunting dog to good hunting dog.

Dogs that had little to no predatory drives were used as livestock guardian dogs to protect sheep etc. You certainly didn't want a dog with predatory drives living with your sheep and trying to herd all day lol So not all breeds have a complete set of predatory motor patterns.

So basically from what I understand a normal village dog that evolved naturally has little to no prey drive. They evolved to be scavengers not hunters. Then you have dogs that displayed predatory drives and man manipulated and molded these drives to create dogs for certain work and hunting. First came molding behavioral conformation then the physical conformation came along side of that...so, purebred dogs were created from selective breeding at first for behavioral conformation...now they are bred more just to look like the breed.

Just for an example a livestock guardian dog should have very little to no prey drive. If they did they would have been taken from the breeding program or culled. Now a days we don't really breed for behavioral conformation so this doesn't always hold true now. Basically to create a breed of dog they used to create by rearranging the functional sequence of motor patterns by deleting some and changing the shape of others, and by connecting and disconnecting still others.

If I were to get a herding breed I "want" them to display predatory motor patterns towards the livestock to get them moving and herd them. A border collie collie should have the following motor patterns (orient>EYE STALK>CHASE they should never go to a grab bite or kill bite.

A pointer would look like this orient>EYE stalk> grab bite so basically Pointers were not created to chase, but rather to stay in the eye stalk position until the handler gives the command to flush which is a modified grab bite.

Anyway this is just a basis of my limited studies of predatorial motor patterns. From what I've read I basically take into consideration what makes sense and what doesn't and I think we all take away something a bit different.

It's really quite interesting. I have a nice blend of dogs right now, 3 Newfoundland dogs, Alaskan Husky Border Collie type, Rottweiler, and Doberman. To see the lack of predatory drives in the Doberman and the Newfoundland dogs and comparing to the border collie mix and Rottweiler is amazing.

[lblax]

cally thats a pretty good post although your really down playing the prey drive herding /guarding /sport dogs all need this in huge amounts. and any well breed rott/gsd/pitt bull/dobe anmong others will have a ton of it, or should have.

Just for an example a livestock guardian dog should have very little to no prey drive. If they did they would have been taken from the breeding program or culled

this is not true if the dog had little or no prey rive not only would he not have what it takes to chase away the coyote or wolf the flock would be scattered far and wide because without prey drive they wouldnt be able to keep the flock together. while herding instinc comes naturally for many dogs that doesnt mean they can do it with out the help and traing and breaking of unwanted behavior by the human in charge of the flock. i truly dont think dogs in general even wolves have a total predator drive anytime they may get caught up in the moment and kill through over stimulation and they like wolves will kill to eat. only cats have that true predator drive they kill to eat and they kill just to kill.

[Rott'n'lab Mom]

RottieGirl, thanks for the link that describes predatory drift.

It provided a good description and explanation of why my normally good natured rottweiler mix, began to grab and shake a trespassing beagle who ran onto our property after visiting a neighbor. Fortunately Bella quickly responded to my husband's leave it command and the beagle was uninjured. I was not very pleased with the owners of that beagle, allowing it to run loose in a strange neighborhood and then driving off with their beagle standing up loose in the bed of their pickup truck

The majority of Bella's playmates are much smaller dogs and she's generally very tolerant of all sorts of rude behavior from small dogs. This incident was a reminder to us to continue to be vigilant in supervising her interactions with all dogs.

[TrinaJ]

On my walks with my dogs over the years, I have been asked many times by people 'Does your dog bite?" My response is always the same, all dogs can bite if put into a situation where they feel threatened. Generally half of the people who ask dont even wait for my reply BEFORE they commence patting my dog!!

Will my dog ever bite someone? Possibly, i dont know, she is a dog, dogs are unpredictable. I am not a dog and i have no idea what goes on inside their brains. All i know is that I dont ever want her to be put in a situation where she feels threatened. I want her to be in an environment where she feels safe and loved, and i hope that is how she feels around me and my family. I have never once seen her cower or show fear to anything, but i have never put her in a situation where 'I' think she may feel threatened....once again I am not a dog so I can only assume that i've not put her in that position.