general lack of canine behaviour

[cally01]

"this is not true if the dog had little or no prey rive not only would he not have what it takes to chase away the coyote or wolf the flock would be scattered far and wide because without prey drive they wouldnt be able to keep the flock together. "

Actually Iblax it is true :) this is from studies done by biologists who have intensely studied predatory drives and raised many livestock guardian dogs, herding dogs and have raised and raced sled dogs, have sheep etc. I've also had the pleasure of meeting working guardian dogs, they will not chase they will just stand between you and the sheep.

A guardian dog is not there to chase the sheep if the "guardian" dog did the dog would be culled and taken out of the breeding program. They also do not chase wolves and coyotes the dog is there simply to deter these predators. A Coyote and or Wolf are opportunistic they are not going to fight a dog to get a sheep. They developed herding dogs to herd sheep, livestock guardian dogs to guard sheep. Rarely does a good guardian display any of the predatory motor patterns.

"while herding instinc comes naturally for many dogs that doesnt mean they can do it with out the help and traing and breaking of unwanted behavior by the human in charge of the flock."
Iblax no it may not come naturally to all herding breeds especially those bred for dog shows only and not for their actual job they can loose some breed specific motor patterns due to breeding for physical conformation and no longer behavior conformation. A good herding dog from working breeders has "natural" drives and herding comes naturally to them. No one trains them to have drives, all a shepherd has to do is to shape them correctly for the field for example shaping the outrun. Also, a herding dog should not be brought up with the animals they are to herd as you don't want them imprinting where you should bring up a guardian dog with the flock so they "do" imprint on the animals they are protecting.

Anyhow, I have found breed specific motor patterns and predatorial drives to be so interesting. We all have learned different things and my studies have led me down the current train of thought.

[Mick Trainer]

this is from studies done by biologists who have intensely studied predatory drives and raised many livestock guardian dogs, herding dogs and have raised and raced sled dogs, have sheep etc. I've also had the pleasure of meeting working guardian dogs, they will not chase they will just stand between you and the sheep. Can you please name these studies as I for one would be very interested in any study regarding specific motor patterns and predatory drives. I have found few studies conducted into such things and would be extremely interested in getting my hands on any study regarding such specific motor patterns. Even studies regarding other specific brain patterns of certain behaviors would be of extreme interest if you know of them.

Mick.

[cally01]

Hi Mick the biologist name is Raymond Coppiner he is a professor of biology of Hampshire College. The book I learned about breed specific motor patterns is called "Dogs A startling new understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution" . You can probably get it on Amazon.

I found it fascinating and learned a great deal. There may be some things you disagree with but you may take away some ideas that may really interest you :)

[lblax]

livestock guardian dogs to guard sheep.

so your talking about dogs that simply guard sheep and do not herd the flock ? that all makes sense i was thinking of herding the flock and prey drive is needed for that. our vets secratary has some type of dog i'll have to ask her what breed it is, that has lived with there sheep since it was a pup. we have lots of cyotes around here and many of the people that have sheep have 1 or 2 llamas in with them i heard this is to deter the cyotes i dont know if thats true or not.

[debbiej]

we have had dogs that seemed to act so human they made us forget they weren't. what a wake up call to realize they would eat roadkill while on a walk with the kids. I have found the more "experience" a dog can get in our world the more it can learn what it needs to learn to live in it. good, thoughtful post.

[jlhnokc]

"so your talking about dogs that simply guard sheep and do not herd the flock ? that all makes sense i was thinking of herding the flock and prey drive is needed for that. our vets secratary has some type of dog i'll have to ask her what breed it is, that has lived with there sheep since it was a pup. we have lots of cyotes around here and many of the people that have sheep have 1 or 2 llamas in with them i heard this is to deter the cyotes i dont know if thats true or not"

Yes, Llamas are used very often to "guard" a flock. My father has been into cattle and sheep or goats his whole life and has always used llamas to protect his heards. If a stray dog, or coyote comes into the field, the llamas will take after them and chase them off. He also has some dogs that will do the same thing, black mouth kerrs I think...

[Nishasmom]

Originally Posted by lblax

so your talking about dogs that simply guard sheep and do not herd the flock ? that all makes sense i was thinking of herding the flock and prey drive is needed for that. our vets secratary has some type of dog i'll have to ask her what breed it is, that has lived with there sheep since it was a pup. we have lots of cyotes around here and many of the people that have sheep have 1 or 2 llamas in with them i heard this is to deter the cyotes i dont know if thats true or not.

Llamas are very territorial. They will indeed kill threatening animals. A lot of people here use them to guard their goats. Many people also use Great Pyrenese (sp?), maybe this is what your vets secretary has?