Chasing Shadows/lights PLZ HELP!!

[DarinBongo]

Originally Posted by Anne

Are you suggesting euthanasia without having observed this dog and therefore having no idea of the degree fixation this dog has with light and shadows? Dogs have been successfully treated for this obsession by qualified animal behaviourists. I would think it reasonable to at least attempt to modify the behaviour before suggesting 'a more peaceful place'where demons are not allowed'.

Euthanasia is the last resort when all else fails, not the first port of call for a behavioural problem. I am shocked at how quickly some people suggest euthanasia as a solution to a problem without at least exploring other avenues..

I wouldn't worry about damp's comment Anne. This is the same dip***t that said his dogs weren't pets, just dogs, in the other thread where someone was merely asking if they've ever seen a dog born without a tail. Damp seemed to think it was completely absurd for someone to love and cherish their pet if they weren't perfect show quality.

[stale]

Originally Posted by DarinBongo

I wouldn't worry about damp's comment Anne. This is the same dip***t that said his dogs weren't pets, just dogs, in the other thread where someone was merely asking if they've ever seen a dog born without a tail. Damp seemed to think it was completely absurd for someone to love and cherish their pet if they weren't perfect show quality.

hey now... i know that i've not always agreed with damp, and that we're posted some seriously differing views on things, but really, no need to go about calling him names. for all our differing opinions on things, the man really does know his stuff.

and, from personal experience working with dogs that have OCD, mostly what you're managing to do is change the focus of the obsessive behavior to something less disruptive. a dog with a focus on working is less annoying than one with a fixation on light and shadows. but you've got to watch for recurrance of their obsession with the original focus. an OCD dog is never truly cured, and you have to keep working with them the rest of their lives.

and, for all that i hate the thought of any animal being put down, damp has a point. no matter what the focus of their obsession, the dog will always be stressed. and it will always need lots of work and attention to keep them from becoming a serious problem. once the animal reaches a point where just existing is torment, then yes, being PTS is likely the choice left.

i'd assume that damp's advice came from the fact that virtually nobody out there has the time nor temperment to truly work with a damaged dog. (i say assume, because i don't pretend to know what damp thinks - just giving him the benefit of the doubt) make no mistake - working with an OCD dog is a lifelong task, and is not easy.

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now, to stop describing things and actually offer advice, since this is what you came for.

take the lights away from your children. emphasise that continuing to do this to the animal will result in it's DEATH. there is no excuse for animal abuse, not age, nor ignorance.. there is simply none.

now, in terms of changing this behaviour, you're in for a fun fight. the dog won't be focused on you, at all. gaining this focus should be your first job. this is easier with a slightly hungry dog. meaning, keep their food level the same, but make the morning meal lighter, and the evening one heavier. that way the bulk of the day, you, with your treat of choice (chopped up hotdogs, cheese, training snacks, whatever works best) are more interesting than whatever it's focusing on.

when the dog IS focused on shadows/lights, take the dog somewhere else, and work with them. give them something to do - retrieval, obedience, whatever. doesn't matter much, so long as you can keep the dog interested. note - we're not talking 5-6 minutes of training, i'm talking about 30 minutes of doing something else. you're trying to both stimulate the dogs mind, and tire out it's body.

now, this is the hard part - you've got to keep your eyes on the dog pretty much the whole time it's loose in the house. as soon as it focuses on something, distract it with your chosen task, and reward it. this reinforces the thought that focusing on the wall (floor, window, etc) doesn't get it rewarded, but coming with you and breaking the focus does.

unfortunately, you have to do this for the entirety of the dog's life, and there are no guarantees that it will work. but a tired dog (both physically and mentally) is easier to deal with than a dog full of piss and vinegar, and ready to blow all that energy on it's OCD focus.


finally, on a rather depressing note - it is entirely possible that there is no hope for an animal suffering OCD. i hate this thought, but it's true - sometimes you have no choice but to let the dog go, so they don't live in torment anymore.

IF it comes to this, and your dog has to be put down (and you have a good long time to work before it comes to this point, i hope). I would point out to your children EXACTLY why the animal was ill, and what their hand in it was.

actually, i would point this out now. explain to them that they are diving the animal insane, and it IS CRUEL. the fact that you haven't done this yet seriously upsets me. i'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but if you're ignoring this abuse of the animal, what else might they be putting up with that they shouldn't have to?

i'm not attacking you here, just asking you to step back, ignore the fact that they're your children, and try to see them as strangers treating your dog in (x) manner. if the treatment would be inappropriate from a stranger, then it's signifigantly worse from a member of the dog's family. if you can't get your children to treat the dog properly, i urge you to rehome the animal to somewhere less abusive to the animal's mental state - and again, explain exactly why to your children. the hope here is that they learn NOT to torment animals. most certainly not animals that are putatively in their care.

good luck, and please, please keep us updated with your progress. i know i sound harsh sometimes (though i promise, i'm all sweetness and light compared to some of our members.) but i really do want what's best for both you and your dog. an unhappy, stressed animal is not a safe animal. neither for itself nor the people around it. adding children to the mix is frightening, since what amounts to a minor bite to me would be a serious incident with a child. it would be tragic to see the animal PTS, and the children scarred, because they didn't understand how wrong what they've done to the animal is.

[DarinBongo]

sorry stale, but where you actually offered advice and only brought up euthanasia should all ideas have been exhausted and the dog is actually in pure misery, damp offered the idea before knowing any of the details of this animal and then once someone offered the good advice of an animal behaviorist, he said "do you have any proof? id love to see it." Somehow I don't think that was an actual sincere question and i think it is absurd to think that you should resort to that before thinking of any other options. All of the posts I have read of his go towards this same opinion that these are just dogs and if they are not perfect, what is the point of having them.
I highly doubt that anyone would take the time to come on this forum and write a thread asking for help if they wanted to hear right off the bat that they should euthanize their dog because it chases lights and shadows. This forum offers such wonderful advice and it is those type of dumb comments that give people the impression that RDN is a group of heartless individuals. I think it's a shame that anyone would think like that and while it is okay to express your opinion, i don't think that is an opinion that should be pushed on anyone and have other peoples good ideas shut down.
On the flipside, you offered some really great advice and I hope that the OP takes into consideration all you have said and comes to a solution that works for themselves and their dog.

[my guy]

Wow.... sometimes I think everyone just goes to far on this site. I like to read (and laugh) at some of the over the top commitments. Why can't a dog just be a dog and why can't we as human just enjoy them.I had a rottie that chased her tail that she didn't have and she was a amazing dog that lived a long normal life.

[Janus'sMom]

I have to admit... DarinBongo has a point... I was at another rotti forum site before this one. (lost the web link when I reformated my pc). I had some behavior issues with Janus that I had asked about, when I told them that he was only 5wks old and his mom was pts I had my first two repliers tell me (replier #1)" he (and the entire litter) should have been pts with his mother"... (and replier #2) "trade him in at a rotti rescue for an older dog that doesn't have these issues".... I'm sorry to say that I will NOT go back to that site because of those two comments on my first thread asking for advice. I come here and see alot of people giving actual advice and I read so many funny and serious threads that are very helpful. And after spending my first week here just reading threads, came to see that Janus's behavior problems were NORMAL ROTTI PUPPY BEHAVIORS... Not once had someone told me he was being normal and just acting like a puppy (from the other site).

And actually was thinking about getting a laser light to have Janus chase to tire him out while inside cause of this weather. But now that I see that it can/is an a serious issue, I will NOT get him one, and I will also be allerting my aunt that has a laser for her mini pinscher (home is obsessed with it).

[Jaidann]

Hmmmm. I think there is quite a bit of difference between the occasional chasing of a non-existant tail and something such as this. The OP stated this fixation is lasting for hours. There's a difference, IMO. My rottie also chased her non-existant tail. However I had no problems breaking that "game" to get her attention and it definately wasn't something she did for hours on in.

[Shelby427]

Originally Posted by my guy

Wow.... sometimes I think everyone just goes to far on this site. I like to read (and laugh) at some of the over the top commitments. Why can't a dog just be a dog and why can't we as human just enjoy them.I had a rottie that chased her tail that she didn't have and she was a amazing dog that lived a long normal life.

This is different than a dog who is constantly looking for lights and shadows. A dog that has OCD is not enjoying life always looking for lights and beams. It's not fair to the dog to do this to them. It's amusement for humans to make the dog act like this and it's unacceptable.

[debbiej]

just a comment. nothing more.
I was at a herding demo watching a border collie work. his handler was explaining something to another person, using his hands to gesture. the BC was watching the shadows his hands made, with crazy intensity, trying to catch them on the ground. it was clear the dog had some real problems. he also cautioned the people watching to not come near the dog. now understandably, he was working, so shouldn't be approached. later, I spoke to the man, asking about where to train for herding. the conversation got around to his dog, and he told me he had real problems with strangers and children, and had very little life outside of his sheep work.

[stale]

hey, OP (FILCCEE) any update on your pup? i'm curious, is all. hope everything is going good!

[damp]

Originally Posted by DarinBongo

sorry stale, but where you actually offered advice

I can't help but ask what advices you brought to the board and this thread BONGO???? Except blaming me! ????????????

The OP said:

Recently he has been jumping on walls trying to attack the shadows or lights. He goes nuts for shadows. I try to calm him down by making him sit and focus on me although he often is so fixated on the shadow that he will not listen. I was driving this week with him and a cd was on the floor which reflected onto the ceiling of my car and he lunged at it and he nearly made me crash. I have read other posts on this forum about lasers and shadows although i have yet to find a post that explains how to reduce this behavior. It seems as if it is getting worse. He gets so fixated on shadows for hours, It is becoming very irritating and irritating for him im sure. Is there any suggestions on how change this behavior? I keep him away from all flash lights or any type of lights. I exercise him alot although he still seems to be so fixated on the shadows

Looks like you forgot to read the OP's post, but you DID well to blame me for just having an other opinion!

Sorry... we all (and you too Anne) respond to the written words and all advices given here (no matter who we are and what we know or think) are given without seeing the dog in question in person ... but what the OP wrote!

Bingo... Bongo: My 8 years old dog is NOT perfect... but still alive yes he is alive because he is mental and physical sound and does not need any kind of medicine or "special needs" trainers/behaviorists nor my bank to keep him alive!

PS. I do feel sorry for your dog(s), if you think the last resort and PTS(/cull) is so bad.
Put to sleep is hard to do, but sometimes necessary and an option if you know JUST a bit about dogs and if you LOVE your dog!

[observer]

The OP has just now learned what the problem probably is from coming here. He or she now has information, and options. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to remove the pointers from the house, have the dog evaluated, and, if it appears to be something that might be brought under control with the time commitment involved, to try to fix or significantly reduce the problem.

If the experienced behaviorist thinks the dog cannot be helped, or the OP cannot put the time and effort required into trying, then PTS is a valid option, if the dog cannot have a happy, relatively normal life.

[DarinBongo]

Originally Posted by damp

I can't help but ask what advices you brought to the board and this thread BONGO????

The OP said:

Looks like you forgot to read the OP's post, but DID well to blame me for just having an other opinion!

Sorry... (you too Anne) but we all respond to the written words, and all advices given here (no matter who) are given without seeing the dog in question in person ... but what the OP wrote!

Bingo... Bongo: My 8 years old dog is NOT perfect... but still alive yes he is alive because he is mental and physical sound and does not need any kind of medicine or "special needs" trainers/behaviorists nor my bank to keep him alive!

PS. I do feel sorry for your dog(s), if you think the last resort and PTS(/cull) is so bad.
Put to sleep is hard to do, but sometimes necessary and an option if you know JUST a bit about dogs and if you LOVE your dog!

I quoted stale and offered my congratulations because they actually offered ADVICE to the OP. I'm sure that the OP posted here looking for some kind of possible therapy or experience from people that may have dealt with the same thing. Filecee posted looking for advice and then one of the first responses they get is "put the dog down" - without even knowing how bad the dogs problem actually is and if it has tried to be remedied yet, is just ignorant to say the least.

I am a relatively new member with a very young Rott and I have tried to offer my experiences thus far to the board with what I have experienced. If you feel I haven't had much to offer, then don't read what I post! But for the OP to post asking for help and then read what you wrote, well... it's pretty self-explanatory why we haven't heard much else from the OP. I wouldn't return to the boards either if that's the first "advice" I heard.

If you feel the only way to keep a dog is if it is completely mentally and physically sound, well then I hope for your dogs sake that they don't get any signs of the very common HD or SD and never even come down with a cold. It is possible for a dog to live a happy and comfortable life if they have some physical problems and it is also possible for a dog to get help from an ACTUAL EXPERIENCED behaviorist and remedy their mental issue as well. For all you know the OP may have a child that tortures this dog with a laser light or when the dog was a pup was put in a room where lots of cars drove by and the lights reflected to the ceiling. The point is, that you don't know enough to offer your "opinion" of being put to sleep as the first option. If the OP came here looking for help, they must want to help their dog and unlike you, may not mind paying for a few visits from a behaviorist to get past this quirk and give their dog a happy and long life. If it can't be remedied by a behaviorist and the dog is in actual misery, than of course being put down would be the best for the dog - but not before trying.

[Shelby427]

Originally Posted by DarinBongo

I quoted stale and offered my congratulations because they actually offered ADVICE to the OP. I'm sure that the OP posted here looking for some kind of possible therapy or experience from people that may have dealt with the same thing. Filecee posted looking for advice and then one of the first responses they get is "put the dog down" - without even knowing how bad the dogs problem actually is and if it has tried to be remedied yet, is just ignorant to say the least.

I am a relatively new member with a very young Rott and I have tried to offer my experiences thus far to the board with what I have experienced. If you feel I haven't had much to offer, then don't read what I post! But for the OP to post asking for help and then read what you wrote, well... it's pretty self-explanatory why we haven't heard much else from the OP. I wouldn't return to the boards either if that's the first "advice" I heard.

If you feel the only way to keep a dog is if it is completely mentally and physically sound, well then I hope for your dogs sake that they don't get any signs of the very common HD or SD and never even come down with a cold. It is possible for a dog to live a happy and comfortable life if they have some physical problems and it is also possible for a dog to get help from an ACTUAL EXPERIENCED behaviorist and remedy their mental issue as well. For all you know the OP may have a child that tortures this dog with a laser light or when the dog was a pup was put in a room where lots of cars drove by and the lights reflected to the ceiling. The point is, that you don't know enough to offer your "opinion" of being put to sleep as the first option. If the OP came here looking for help, they must want to help their dog and unlike you, may not mind paying for a few visits from a behaviorist to get past this quirk and give their dog a happy and long life. If it can't be remedied by a behaviorist and the dog is in actual misery, than of course being put down would be the best for the dog - but not before trying.

not to get totally off topic here, but if you knew the OP's past threads, she/he doesn't usually take the advice anyways and will probably post the same problem a month from now.

It's not the first advice the OP has heard either, this is a dog that is left outside unattended for most of the day, hasn't had any training, barks, jumps on the glass door etc. We've given good, solid advice and it's up to the OP to take the advice.

[observer]

Shelby,

I hadn't looked at the prior posts. You make a good point. I have to wonder how receptive the OP is going to be to any advice on this issue.

[damp]

Originally Posted by DarinBongo

I quoted stale and offered my congratulations because they actually offered ADVICE to the OP. I'm sure that the OP posted here looking for some kind of possible therapy or experience from people that may have dealt with the same thing. Filecee posted looking for advice and then one of the first responses they get is "put the dog down" - without even knowing how bad the dogs problem actually is and if it has tried to be remedied yet, is just ignorant to say the least.

I am a relatively new member with a very young Rott and I have tried to offer my experiences thus far to the board with what I have experienced. If you feel I haven't had much to offer, then don't read what I post! But for the OP to post asking for help and then read what you wrote, well... it's pretty self-explanatory why we haven't heard much else from the OP. I wouldn't return to the boards either if that's the first "advice" I heard.

If you feel the only way to keep a dog is if it is completely mentally and physically sound, well then I hope for your dogs sake that they don't get any signs of the very common HD or SD and never even come down with a cold. It is possible for a dog to live a happy and comfortable life if they have some physical problems and it is also possible for a dog to get help from an ACTUAL EXPERIENCED behaviorist and remedy their mental issue as well. For all you know the OP may have a child that tortures this dog with a laser light or when the dog was a pup was put in a room where lots of cars drove by and the lights reflected to the ceiling. The point is, that you don't know enough to offer your "opinion" of being put to sleep as the first option. If the OP came here looking for help, they must want to help their dog and unlike you, may not mind paying for a few visits from a behaviorist to get past this quirk and give their dog a happy and long life. If it can't be remedied by a behaviorist and the dog is in actual misery, than of course being put down would be the best for the dog - but not before trying.

Yes and you quoted me in other threads too ... fine... and not only quoted... but your post was deleated!!!!

PTS IS AN OPTION and for sure a good option ...

I am still waiting for your (better) advice(s) to the OP... how to deal with the problem:

Recently he has been jumping on walls trying to attack the shadows or lights. He goes nuts for shadows. I try to calm him down by making him sit and focus on me although he often is so fixated on the shadow that he will not listen. I was driving this week with him and a cd was on the floor which reflected onto the ceiling of my car and he lunged at it and he nearly made me crash. I have read other posts on this forum about lasers and shadows although i have yet to find a post that explains how to reduce this behavior. It seems as if it is getting worse. He gets so fixated on shadows for hours

Please keep my opinions out of the thread, but offer your(s) and I bet the OP will know what to do, to make the best for his/her dog.