Advice Needed : Agression

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by Julie-at-home

But she's just a puppy. How do you ask me to kill my puppy? She loves me. I love her. This is so unbelievably painful.

Where is Butler? what is the closest city? Maybe some forum member can give you some advise for recommending a trainer or behaviorist in your area. Are there any Shutzhund clubs around? Someone that could see her in action could probably tell if she can be changed. It sometimes is just not the right home for that type of tempered dog. When you have kids, to me all bets are off...you need a dog with a good temperament and good behavior.

I am also often the first to suggest to PTS a dog....but when it's a puppy with a inexperienced home....I think that if she can be re-homed into the right home she should try.

Gina

[RottsNScotts]

Julie, you need to calm down! NO ONE is asking you to "kill" your puppy! We are giving our best advice based on the information you gave us. You have to look at this much more objectively right now.

How did you feel when your daughter was bitten? You already have told us that you could not have prevented it. How would you feel if the next bite is worse?

I can pretty much tell you that no one of the type you would want to have your dog is going to take her. And yes, there would be a HUGE liability to you if you placed her, knowing that she has a bite history and a short fuse whether the adopter was forewarned or not. You know in this day and age, everyone looks for someone else to blame.

If you could stop thinking of "killing" your puppy and start thinking of it as releasing a broken, tortured soul so that it can be made well and return, you might deal with this better.

[dipper]

Julie,
Sorry to hear about your problem.
You have a bad situation there that you must deal with.
Like everyone has said, that is not normal Rottie behavior and really is the worst behavior you could see in such a young bitch.
The fact that she gives no warning and snaps or bites with no provocation is scary to say the least.

I believe you have honestly described what is happening and you truly want the best for your girl and your family--I really can't see what a professional trainer is going to do--I mean why does anyone else have to witness this behavior?? I believe you described it very well.

If you want to try to find her another home with an experienced person that has no children or other concerns ----if you find someone that would take her, I guess that is an option.
She is only going to get bigger and stronger ---she is so young now---her attacks will become more forceful and aggressive and they grow so fast.
I would set a dead line -----if you can't find a suitable person willing to adopt her, she should be put down.
There is much more that could be said here but really, your children and their safety is the most greatest concern.

I am not trying to scare you but I know of a situation much like yours----a well meaning person worked and worked with her dog and thought she had him "fixed"--all went well for a few months than out of nowhere, her dog attacked her little girl and almost completely removed her daughters lower jaw---and it all took less than 10 seconds---and the owner and her boyfriend were only 8 feet away---it can happen that fast.

Also, it is not reasonable to compare Micheal Vicks dogs to yours---not the same thing.

Good Luck,

Rich

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by Julie-at-home

...I was SHOCKED when a rescue person told me to put her down. Like she is disposable. It breaks my heart, esp when I look down at her and here she is, peacfully at my side. But I know if it happened before (snapping), it will happen again, and I can't take that chance. Where can I find someone that will give her a chance?

Look in the mirror--you're the one who needs to give her that chance you want her to have.

I’m involved in rescue. For a fact my rescue group wouldn’t touch your biting dog with a 10’ pole.

Think about it.

You have a dog in your home that bit your daughter. You probably don’t want this to happen again. What makes you think rescue is interested in taking your biting dog to place this dog into a home where she might bite again? You’re thinking your dog might not be safe enough, dependable enough, good enough for your family—but somewhere there exists a family that wants your unsafe dog, a dog who’s not dependable? Why the double standard? What makes other families different from yours?

In my 10 year involvement with rescue I’ve attended scores of meet and greets in several different states. I’ve probably talked to thousands of people. People tell me they want an active dog because they’re active out-of-doors. Other people want a couch potato. Other people want a male. Or a female. Some people want a young dog—they just lost their old Rottie to disease or old age and don’t want to go thru the heartbreak of losing another old dog again. Other people want a dog that’s good with cats. Or kids.

Never, ever have I heard anyone tell me they want a biting dog—that it’s OK if the dog they adopt bit a person or a child.

Bona fide rescue groups don’t take biting dogs for many reasons, some of which I cited above.

Another consideration is liability. We live in a litigious society. Rescue could be sued for knowingly placing a dog with a bite history, should the dog bite again.

Many rescue groups (mine included) have program dogs living in foster care. These foster families are just like yours and mine. You don’t want a biting dog, I don’t want a biting dog, no foster family—complete with kids of their own, dogs and other pets of their own, and people and children visiting—wants a dangerous, unsafe foster. Many foster families are not equipped to rehab dicey, problematic dogs.

Finally, people who come to rescue are looking for safe family pets. They aren’t looking to adopt a problem they’ll need to keep in check.

My rescue group tells people who own biting dogs that they have two choices—and only two choices.

Keep the biter, work with their biter, and make sure the dog doesn’t bite again.

If they can’t do this—or won’t do this—put the dog down.

There is no place in this world for a biting dog.

[hokisteph5]

Originally Posted by Julie-at-home

But she's just a puppy. How do you ask me to kill my puppy? She loves me. I love her. This is so unbelievably painful.

Before you make that final decision, why not take Mavides's advice? Find a reputable trainer and have your puppy evaluated. While it's true that some dogs aren't wired right, I think I would find peace of mind if the decision made is to have her pts, if the recommendation came from someone observing the dog's behavior in person.

To play devil's advocate, in rereading your original post, I could see where your daughter "leaning down" could be an invasion of your dog's space and make her react.

I'm not saying it's right and most dogs are more accepting, but my male snapped at a vet who did it to him, when he was sitting up against a wall. She leaned down to look at his eye, at the request of the vet who was examining him. The other vet didn't have him muzzled because he was fine with her. I've since learned the vet who got snapped at is afraid of big dogs so I've never made an appointment with her since for my male.

I could also say your puppy should not have had a chewy anywhere other than her crate. I've worked really hard with teaching my dogs "give and take" so they're not possessive of their bully sticks or sterilized bones, but I've also seen recommendations to give high value things in a crate.

Both of my dogs tried (at different times) to growl to see if they could get away with it, but learned the "give and take" approach. Luckily they grasped the concept because I don't have kids, but do have cats. It was one of my cats walking by Gretchen that had her growl over her bully stick. If they had continued I would have given them their treats in their crate.

[observer]

Yes, it is terribly painful. But, as you already know, your first responsibility is to your children. You have to keep them safe. If she is, in fact, just not wired correctly, (and a dog that truly does what she does without warning is not, but sometimes there are warning signals that the owner doesn't pick up) that is not a happy way for a dog to live. Those demons will not get better. The liability you would face, should she hurt someone, can be huge. As she gets older and larger, she will be even more dangerous. It is certainly not "immoral" to put such a dog to sleep.

EDIT: If a knowledgeable trainer/behaviorist is able to fully evaluate her in person, I agree that you should do that first. If the conclusion is the same, at least you can have the peace of mind that someone who is an expert actually evaluated her in person first.

There have been others here who have had to make the same decision you may be facing. A search on "demons" should lead you to some of those.

[fostermom]

Two links which might help you if you decide to try to work with this pup with a trainer; both have links to direct you to trainers near you:
Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources
Why choose a Certified Pet Dog Trainer?

[doittou2]

Originally Posted by Julie-at-home

But she's just a puppy. How do you ask me to kill my puppy? She loves me. I love her. This is so unbelievably painful.

It is a hard thing to do. But you MUST think of your kids first and outher people. The kids are afraid of this dog,stop and think next time it may be a lot worse than a bite on the hand and it sounds like there will be a next time.
I am not trying to sound hard on you but people must come first
Danny

[Jaidann]

Butler is just a bit North of Pittsburgh PA. About 20 miles. My husband and I live fairly close her, unfortunately there isn't much we can offer that would be of help. I've searched for Rottie groups around here and I haven't found much. Course I could be looking in the wrong place.

We have a vet appointment on the 5th for our Mastiff. I'd be more than willing to ask him if he knows of anyone that could deal with this type of behavior if that would help.

[observer]

A "Rottie group" isn't necessary, just an experienced dog trainer or behaviorist, ideally with experience with Rotties. Vets might be able to refer, good pet supply stores (probably not the big box stores) might have info.

Julie-- have you contacted this group

Butler Dog Training Association - Welcome

to see if they know of someone who could evaluate your girl for you? I don't know anything about them... I just googled "Dog behaviorist trainer Butler PA" there's other links under that search as well, if you want to try it.

[Lola B Marie]

If you decide you can't keep her, you can call Best Friends animal society. The number is 435 644 2001. They take dogs in even if they have a bite history. They might be able to help her and rehome to a place with lots of land and no children. They took in almost all of Michael Vick's dogs and are working non stop to help them. Give them a call, explain your story and they will help you.
The address is 5001 Angel Canyon Rd
Kanab, UT 84741.
The best thing of all, is they let you visit and you can send presents and food and toys. You did everything possible with your girl. You and your family should not have to live in fear of your pet. Like the others said, A dog should be a valued family member and a joy to have. Not all relationships work out. Let her go to a place where she can be helped with her aggression and not be PTS.

[Mavides]

I'll say it again -- this dog should be evaluated IN PERSON by a trainer that has experience with Rottweilers. It sounds like all the advice has been given via the internet or phone conversations...and (please don't take this wrong Julie), but as a trainer, I would NEVER recommend a dog be put to sleep without seeing the actions firsthand...sometimes an owner (and especially a new owner) doesn't see the whole picture - there might be something simple that you are missing that an experienced trainer can help you with. OR, if it truly is a genetic problem and the dog just isn't wired right, then at least you know you've done your best and you are honestly helping the dog by allowing them to cross the Bridge....and hopefully, you'll have your trainer to support through through that tough time as well.

[Jaidann]

That's kinda why I thought a Rottie club if one could be found would be good. Hopefully they would have some information/access to trainers who deal with Rotties all the time.

I'll do some digging around and see if I can find anyone who might be able to help in this area. The 5th is kind of far away for what seems to need to be dealt with now, but if all else fails, I'll ask our vet then if he knows of anyone.

[harleychik66]

Originally Posted by Julie-at-home

But she's just a puppy. How do you ask me to kill my puppy? She loves me. I love her. This is so unbelievably painful.

Julie, yes this is very painful. No one is making light of the situation or saying it will be easy. A good trainer may be able to help you out. Keep in mind that although you may be able to correct some of her problems it sounds as though you may be dealing with issues her whole life.

Since you got her at 12 weeks you don't know her background. What the temperament of her parents were or what she was exposed to.

Yes you love her, nobody is arguing that. Keep in mind how young she is now, the older she gets the worse she could get. I would hate to see your family and your dog become another statitic and black mark for the breed.

Many, many years ago I had a male rottie. I got him at 8wks from a BYB(I didn't know better at the time). He behaved much as your girl does. I tried and tried to "fix" the problem, but to no avail. Having a young daughter at the time I felt the safest and kindest thing to do was PTS. Having a dog that was healthy in all other aspects except mentally and making the decision to put him to sleep was the hardest decision to make.

Yes, I felt incredibly guilty- much as you do. I know the conflicting emotions you are going through. Many members on this sight have had to make the same decision. It's never easy.

Just remember that some dogs are just not wired right. They are fighting internal demons that we can do nothing to exorcise. Sometimes the kindest most selfless thing you can do is to make this choice.

You live with your girl. You know how she is, if you can get help and it works for you and your girl WONDERFUL. If not, please do not let guilt keep you from doing the right thing for all involved.

[hokisteph5]

Originally Posted by Lola B Marie

If you decide you can't keep her, you can call Best Friends animal society. The number is 435 644 2001. They take dogs in even if they have a bite history. They might be able to help her and rehome to a place with lots of land and no children. They took in almost all of Michael Vick's dogs and are working non stop to help them. Give them a call, explain your story and they will help you.
The address is 5001 Angel Canyon Rd
Kanab, UT 84741.
The best thing of all, is they let you visit and you can send presents and food and toys. You did everything possible with your girl. You and your family should not have to live in fear of your pet. Like the others said, A dog should be a valued family member and a joy to have. Not all relationships work out. Let her go to a place where she can be helped with her aggression and not be PTS.

Lola, I could've sworn someone just tried this route recently and was told by Best Friends they only accept dogs from rescue.