Leaning and sitting on feet?

[damp]

A dog knows VERY well where it places its feet and butt and it also knows who it pushs/leans against. Since the dog does this with deliberately, I simply find it rude, and it is a sign of Subtle Dominance! and it has nothing to do with protection and no dog will herd my kids... Thats my job!

[JoJo]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

MAYBE someone else can get through. I will continue to keep our breed in our thoughts and prayers, for with attitudes like this, we won't have them long. BSL is starting to close in, and we wonder why?

[jaden]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

Originally Posted by damp

A dog knows VERY well where it places its feet and butt and it also knows who it pushs/leans against. Since the dog does this with deliberately, I simply find it rude, and it is a sign of [/font]

Originally Posted by damp

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Subtle Dominance! and it has nothing to do with protection and no dog will herd my kids... Thats my job! [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

[/font]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']From that thread alone I copied just 3 other member’s quotes regarding leaning. There are so many threads regarding the subject it would be impossible to copy all of them. 50% believe this is a behavior issue, 50% do not.[/font]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']When saturn was small people get mad at me saying that I was to strict with him.Look at him now he is very well behaved and does not have a mean bone in his body.Although I do allow him to do things alot of you do not,for instance he'll come over and leen against you while sitting down,he just wants to be petted and I don't mind a dripping hand,but if I don't want him to do this I just tell him no and goes elsewheres.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I would like to say that I agree with everything written so far, in principal, but I'd also like to mention that the dog's personality should be taken into account when examining behaviors. Not EVERYTHING is about dominance[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']. Some puppies step on you simply because they are going through a clumsy stage. Some leaning is affectionate. I had a male Rottie who greeted absolutely everyone he met by swinging around in front of them, sitting down on the the tips of their toes, and leaning (gently) back against them as he tipped his head back and looked into their eyes. I could have quenched this behavior eventually, with a lot of corrections, but I chose not to. This greeting charmed a lot of people, and was totally harmless in itself.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Thank you MaryDVM, for reminding us that a behavior taken out of context of the total dog, cannot be interpreted[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']. I am always reminded of that old saw about evil is, to him who evil thinks. My old male used to butt me with his head to be patted. I am very glad that I turned it into a game. I used to tell him give me some good butts. I would give anything to have those "butties" back. I am in no way suggesting ignoring dominant behavior, but one must view the dog as a whole.[/font]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I also do not like to think I am narrow minded and I do heed good advice when given. So I did a little research on the Internet. This is from http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/rottweilers.html. [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']If you don't want to deal with...[/font]

• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']An extremely careful search to avoid all the bad-tempered Rottweilers [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A bulky dog who takes up a lot of space in your house and car [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A heavy dog who wants to sit on your feet, lie on your lap, and lean his weight against your leg [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Rowdiness and exuberant jumping, especially when young [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Destructiveness when bored or not exercised enough [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Providing enough socialization so their protectiveness doesn't become aggression [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Aggression toward other animals -- chasing instincts [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Strong-willed mind of his own, requiring a confident owner who can take charge [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Slobbering and drooling [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Gassiness (flatulence) [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Shedding [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Legal liabilities (public perception, future breed bans, insurance problems, increased chance of lawsuits) [/font]
• [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A multitude of serious health problems and a short lifespan [/font]

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A Rottweiler may not be right for you.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Like I said, if any one disagrees with me that is fine. I know my dog and I know her intentions. And to quote another member “a behavior taken out of context of the total dog, cannot be interpreted”[/font]

[Jaidann]

I have to say this is one of the posts that made me chuckle before I decided to post to these forums. Our rottie did this. Whether subtle dominance, the need to be close or affection I don't know. I'm no expert on behavior. I can only say that I *felt* it was a bit of all of it combined. At least with her given her personality.

Jaden, whether done tactfully or not, I do believe these people have the best interests of your children and your dogs at heart. It's hard to look at something you've been doing for so long and realize it might not be best. Obviously you love your children and your dogs.

I'll leave you with this ... the ONLY two times in my life I've been bitten by a dog have been as a child in my own home. They were family pets. My step-mother's pomeranian and my fathers springer spaniel. The spaniel bit me as I opened the door to the camper where he was laying in front of the door. He got me on the upper arm. The pomeranian bit me in the face while I was laying on the floor watching TV. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Both times seemed to be an innocent act on my part. Maybe I moved on the floor wrong, maybe I opened the door too fast. Before these incidents, the dogs were always always on their best behavior and never displayed acts like this before. Poor ownership on my parents part? Probably. But could you imagine if these dogs were Rotts? To this day, even though I know it isn't logical, I avoid all pomeranians and springers like the plague.

They are dogs, and we cannot say we truly *know* them. We try. We believe we DO know them but how many times have we all seen or heard the .. "but he never did this before." Now 9 times out of 10 these are people who have no clue about how to handle dogs. However, we have to realize we can't know everything about our beloved pets and all it takes is just one time for a life to forever change.

Just think about it :)

[jaden]

Originally Posted by Jaidann

Jaden, whether done tactfully or not, I do believe these people have the best interests of your children and your dogs at heart. It's hard to look at something you've been doing for so long and realize it might not be best. Obviously you love your children and your dogs.


They are dogs, and we cannot say we truly *know* them. We try. We believe we DO know them but how many times have we all seen or heard the .. "but he never did this before." Now 9 times out of 10 these are people who have no clue about how to handle dogs. However, we have to realize we can't know everything about our beloved pets and all it takes is just one time for a life to forever change.

Just think about it :)

Thank you very much for your post Jaidann. I am not against good advice. I get defensive when it's given as an insult instead of trying to actually help someone. There is a certain amount of "tact" needed for someone to be open to what they are hearing.

Since this thread has started ( and I completely apologize to the OP for taking it over) I have not only researched what I could online but called a couple of trainers as well. Like I said, I am with my kids and dogs 99% of the time, and the 1% I am not with them I certainly would not want it to turn into a blood bath. I don't think I know my dog 100% but prior to this I was comfortable with the fact she was an obedient dog and has done nothing but love our family. I now find myself questioning every movement she makes trying to figure out if this is normal or dominant behavior which is not good because I know with how she has been looking at me the last few days she senses my distrust. That alone could turn ugly if she thinks it is a sign of weakness in her pack leader.

I've actually taken it a step further and contacted Old World Kennels (which specializes in Rott training as well being a reputable breeder) and am waiting to hear back about starting Jaden in their advanced training classes. It's a 300 mile round trip once a week but will be well worth if there were to be any potentional problems with Jaden in the future.

Once again, thanks for your post and I apologize to any other members that I may have insulted that do know more than I. Owning a Rott for 5 years does not make me an expert but hopefully the more learning I do in the future does!

Rhonda

[damp]

Originally Posted by jaden

I am not against good advice.

Great !

Then read the stickies in the Behavior Forum by Mick Trainer!

I can't find the thread, but here is a qoute by good (old) and missed JudiW;

Definition of dominance:
Regardless of the "reasons" (excuses?) we sometimes give to explain a dog's misbehavior, when a dog is telling people what they can and cannot do, that is dominance. That is what dominance is - the dog assuming control. Even soft dogs can display dominant behavior. It is simply "who's on top".

[jaden]

I'm actually in the process of starting her in advanced obedience classes at Old World Kennel. They are the closest breeders/trainers in Ohio (that I could find) that specialize in Rotts. Not that I am against any local training places, but I would assume that someone that has been dealing with the breed exclusively for many years could offer better insight to what may be the start of bad behavior.

[eyoung]

Max is a leaner, too. My family, friends and I have always seen it as more of a lingering hug. Lots of care and affection involved in these type of leans. As far as leaning on strangers, he may do it if the encounter warrants it as appropriate-basically, feeling if the stranger is ok with it. It's almost as if it his formal way of introducing himself.

[Obelix]

[quote=eyoung;803004]Max is a leaner, too. My family, friends and I have always seen it as more of a lingering hug. Lots of care and affection involved in these type of leans. As far as leaning on strangers, he may do it if the encounter warrants it as appropriate-basically, feeling if the stranger is ok with it.

It's almost as if it his formal way of introducing himself

.

It's telling the other that their place is lower than his.Right from the start he's making clear who's in charge.

[Cdn1050]

It’s easy to see leaning as a form of affection because for those of us with easy going Rotts, some don’t want to see their dog as being manipulative and dominant with such an outgoing friendly temperament. It is actually dominance to a dog. I’ve been getting conflicting advice on leaning, and have only allowed a couple seconds of it and only when I said so for a quick scratch behind my dog’s ears or a quick pet. The first obedience school that I enrolled my dog into taught the stand command by having your dog lean on your left side for a couple seconds. I didn’t like that idea and felt that was not the way I wanted to teach my dog the stand command. I enrolled my puppy into this particular school because the school was highly recommended by other dog owners. After completing the 10 week course, I didn’t bother going back. I have had a dog trainer watch as my dog leaned on me at the end of class, and watch her body language and advise that it was not dominance. It doesn’t look like dominance, but it is. After hours of Googling on the subject and asking COE breeders of large breed dogs (non-Rottie ones) about this subject, I have come to the conclusion that “yes” it is dominance. Even if it doesn’t appear to be and I’m glad that I didn’t allow for long periods of this behaviour from the get go. That is why I think this forum is great for all Rottie owners, but sometimes in posts you will come across conflicting information or information that is not clear and you need to post and ask for clarification. Hopefully the experienced ones will answer and keep in mind that this person may have received conflicting information whether it be from the RDN posts or elsewhere, and will answer with an explanation as to why. Newbies really need to read what’s in the information given and not the sound of the tone of the posts. This is a good thread and I’m glad that it was brought up.

[Maxxx]

Ok, so what is the answer then? Some people on here say it's affection, some say it's dominance. From all that I've read on here, it's pretty much split 50/50. I've been wondering this myself since I know Rotties are known to lean on legs and sit on feet, but Max doesn't do this to me. He'll sit on hubby's foot now and then, but of he's around me, he's sitting nicely. I always thought this was because he's been trained to sit on my left or in front of me due to OB. If it is truly dominance, then I want to tell my hubby to not allow him to do that going forward. Or does this leaning thing really depend on the dog? ie. if a soft dog does it, it's affection but if a more dominant dog does it, it's dominance? I'm very interested in what the experts have to say on this as well!

[lolasdad]

Hi all, just wanted to add my thoughts. I also am wondering if it is a bad thing? My 4 and a half month old female Rott does this to me and I have a feeling it is out of need to be close and show affection at least thats what I think and hope. I know I don't understand her 100% but think I would be able to tell if she is trying to dominate me. I have a 2 almost 3 year old yellow lab and I know from day one that the rott dominates her and the lab seems comfortable with that. I make sure to treat the lab equally as the rott and let them figure out their order as long as neither dog is being harmed I let it be. But when it comes to dominating any part of my family that is taken seriously and is made clear to her where she is in that order. I don't have a bad feeling about letting her sit on my feet and need to know if this is something I need to correct or if it is safe to allow. Thanks in advance.
Rick

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Maxxx

Ok, so what is the answer then? Some people on here say it's affection, some say it's dominance. From all that I've read on here, it's pretty much split 50/50. I've been wondering this myself since I know Rotties are known to lean on legs and sit on feet, but Max doesn't do this to me. He'll sit on hubby's foot now and then, but of he's around me, he's sitting nicely. I always thought this was because he's been trained to sit on my left or in front of me due to OB. If it is truly dominance, then I want to tell my hubby to not allow him to do that going forward. Or does this leaning thing really depend on the dog? ie. if a soft dog does it, it's affection but if a more dominant dog does it, it's dominance? I'm very interested in what the experts have to say on this as well!

When one is looking at a dog's behavior, one should take a LOT more into account than one specific behavior. The level of respect that a dog has for it's owner/family (the true level of respect, not the level of respect the owner WANTS the dog to possess!) should really be looked at. Does the dog respond to commands immediately or does it take 2 or 10 times to get the dog to respond? And that's just the beginning of really looking at the relationship. Body language, environmental factors, these all come into play.

This leaning/standing on feet is a subtly dominant behavior. It does not mean the dog is going to bite the owner/family at any time without warning. As I stated earlier in this thread, the majority of dogs are what we know as "middle of the road" in temperament. With dogs who have weaker or stronger temperaments, we must manage them more carefully to prevent issues from popping up.

If you combine this behavior with other dominant behaviors (i.e. sitting on children, pushing owner off bed or couch, non compliance to known commands (I stress "known" because many people think their dogs are trained but in reality they are not), dominant behavior with food or other high value items, etc... then one should definitely look into tightening up the ship and being more consistent with the animal. It's really inconsistent treatment of dogs that confuses them and gives them the idea their may be room for a canine leader in the household.

A simple push back suffices with a leaning dog and then back to business. The lean/standing on feet in and of itself is the dog claiming ownership of whoever he is doing this to, as obelix said. All humans in the household should be respected by the animal. Dogs need consistency and structure; in play, in training, and in life... that's the one thing we humans get lax about; when the going gets good, we get lazy. It's human nature to become complacent, and that's when we let our dogs (and sometimes humans) down because we leave decision making to the dogs.

[felicityjay]

hmmmmm well now I am a little confused. I actually have encouraged my dog to lean on me when i call her for some affection (she eventually ends up lying on her back as she slips down it is sooo cute - or so i thought!!!!)... perhaps i shouldn't have??!!!! : (

She is very respectful the rest of the time and the CGC examiners commented on her fantastic temperament and discussed therapy work and competitions i should do with her... She responds to commands immediately, never even gets up on sofas or anything...waits for things never goes through a door first etc etc etc...

Now i don't know whether to stop her leaning on other people etc or to leave it as it has not so far resulted in lack of respect or obedience elsewhere. (I am of course aware that I still have a few months in which teenage pushing could occur but so far so good and I guess if i started to have issues the leaning could be the first thing to go?)

It seems i should maybe push her off? : (

[Shelby427]

Originally Posted by felicityjay

hmmmmm well now I am a little confused. I actually have encouraged my dog to lean on me when i call her for some affection (she eventually ends up lying on her back as she slips down it is sooo cute - or so i thought!!!!)... perhaps i shouldn't have??!!!! : (

She is very respectful the rest of the time and the CGC examiners commented on her fantastic temperament and discussed therapy work and competitions i should do with her... She responds to commands immediately, never even gets up on sofas or anything...waits for things never goes through a door first etc etc etc...

Now i don't know whether to stop her leaning on other people etc or to leave it as it has not so far resulted in lack of respect or obedience elsewhere. (I am of course aware that I still have a few months in which teenage pushing could occur but so far so good and I guess if i started to have issues the leaning could be the first thing to go?)

It seems i should maybe push her off? : (

Although i may allow some leaning on ME - if she's coming for a scratch or some affection - I absolutely will NOT allow either dog to lean (or anything of the sort) on other people. Period.