Update on Khori's Eating (food aggression)

[keller27]

Yesterday I went over to work with Khori. The trainer is moving his bowl in different places in the room. So last night feeding she had me sit on the couch and she placed his bowl (raised feeder) right by where I was sitting. My foot was actually touching his. and my shih tzu was sitting on the couch too. We had someone taking out acouple dogs one at a time by him. When they did this he was taking one of his breaks off of the food. So he growled, but it was a little one. I mean, they were walking by him within a foot of him. So we added alittle stress to his eating. He starts to be okay with one thing, then she changes it so that he feels comfortable some other place, or distraction. He will have to be able to not growl with my shih tzu (Haley) is walking around, which I don't see her even getting near him, because she didn't bother him before. I want him to be safe around people and other dogs.

He played tug with acouple of the dogs on the other side of the plastic baby fence, and he acts like he wants to go in with the other 3 dogs, but when he gets in there, then he gets stupid. So he isn't ready for that. As a puppy I had him in classes with him, but I was so cautious about what puppies to put him with tho. The trainer is on a mission with him, to get him more comfortable around the other dogs. My thing is that I don't want a dog to come up to him and him go off, because he doesn't know how to react to that. He acts interested. As a puppy, he loved playing with the little dogs, like the rat terriers. We had two crawl under our fence a few months ago and my husband let him out in the yard, and of course he ran up to it. The rat terrier of course flipped onto his back and Khori was looking at him, and then my husband got ahold of the collar. Haven't seen the rat terriers since. They were always coming in to our yard, until they spotten Khori. The owners always knew where they were. He wants to play with the chihuahuas behind us too.

When he gets stressed she is figuring out a way for him to do something else. He is not quick

[AngelBunny]

All the dogs in our home eat in separate rooms (2 personal bitches and there's almost always a male foster). A person can take anything away from any dog in our house when the dogs are eating or enjoying a treat.

However, none of them are particularly good about other dogs coming near their bowls when they're eating or when they're working on a beef marrow bone or some other treat.

I do not have a problem with this. I see no need for a group hug when my dogs are eating. This is especially true since all the dogs eat different amounts.

[keller27]

Another thing that helps Khori, is before the location of his food bowl was all wrong. The bowl was placed where there was a hutch on one side of him and a chair on the other side, so he was like enclosed. He is doing better with his bowl is in a open space. So we picked the room that just has the bird cage and bookcase in it and place the bowl in the middle of the room. Then after the feeding, then we move the feeder by the wall and out of the way. My shih tzu eats in the kitchen. We are going to get him to where he will be free fed and regulate himself when he needs food in his system. So while the trainer still has him, then I am watching Haley to stay away from his food bowl.

We give him breaks during feedings, so that he breathes. She is teaching him too, that the food is not going away!! It will be there, and no one is going to take it away.

One thing she is doing with the food bowl is placing it by another area where there are two other dogs. So he will look at the bowl and look at her, like saying, I don't think that I can do this, without growling. She assures him that she will take care of it. These other dogs have been in her training program. So he goes over there, takes a mouth full, takes it over to his area and eats it. He does this and didn't do any growling at the other dogs who are like right there at the bowl.

His eating got really bad. His had some serious issues with the growling and once he barred his teeth at me was standing a distance away from him!

Now he can eat without growling and can be patted with your hand telling him he is doing a great job with his eating. I was worried about him being boarded at the Petshotel and having them feed him. So had to do something. He will always be at the trainers house for boarding from now on.

AngelBunny, what did you mean exactly about "I see no need for a group hug whenmy dogs are eating"?

[AngelBunny]

I do not recommend free feeding whether your have one dog or several. Dog #1 may well eat, hungry or not, to prevent Dog #2 or Dog #3 from getting any of his or her food. Free feeding in a multiple dog household also can encourage guarding behavior--the unhungry dog won't leave his or her bowl, protecting it from the other dogs.

And, if you free feed it can take you longer to find out your dog isn't feeling well than if you feed at set times and the bowl is removed after a certain period of time, whether or not the dog has eaten.

Since my dogs love their tucker, if a dog doesn't start eating when I release the dog after the bowl is put on the floor, I'm running to the phone to make an emergency call to my vet.

Frankly, I don't understand/see how you will be able to free feed with Khori and your small dog.

If your trainer is working to having Khori able to be free fed so he can "regulate himself when he needs food in his system," I question how much experience he or she has with Rotties. I don't understand the point of this aspect of your dog's training. I've had Rotties for 20+ years and all have been stomachs on legs maaquerading as dogs. All would eat as much as I could feed--they'd eat themselves to death if I gave them the opportunity.

By my comment, "I see no reason for a group hug during mealtimes," I mean just that.

I see no need for the dogs in my house to all eat in close proximity, bowls in a row. Every dog is fed in a separate room for all meals. To do otherwise requires too much time on my part to make sure each dog eats only his or her portion (and they’re all fed different amounts) and policing to ensure the bully doesn’t bull others away from their food. (Our foster is fed twice as much as our youngest girl who's the dog in charge. His teeth aren't the greatest. I have no wish to stand around to make sure Mox doesn't bully him away from his food. Nor do I have any wish to make him feel that he needs to fight to protect his food from his pushy, demanding foster sister.)

The only exception is when I leave for work or to go shopping. Every dog gets a small good-bye treat from me. Here I expect polite and calm sits in front of me while I give each dog a treat in rank order.

Other than this, I give each dog space and privacy to enjoy his or her meals alone.

[brunie's mom]

I think it is a bad idea for him to be "free feeding".
Free feeding often encourages dogs with bad food behaviours to guard their food.

I would find him a secure, safe spot in your home to give him his food...put the bowl down after making him do something and give him the 2-3 minutes it takes him to eat. When he is done call him away from his bowl and give him a treat, give him the command to "stay" and take his bowl away and put it away till his next meal.

I also don't think you other dog should be close by while he is eating...everyone should have their own eating area.

Dogs should not be poked, hugged or loved while eating....just let them eat...end of story.

Your dog may not like other dogs at this stage of the game...and he may never like them, not matter how much training you do with him. He must learn to tolerate and ignore other dogs and not attack other dogs....but as far as playing with other dogs...he does not need to do this.

Gina

[hokisteph5]

I free feed my cats (behind baby gates), but not my dogs. Since Gretchen gets less than Samson, due to size, she tends to check his bowl when she's finished. I told her a few days ago that the day Samson has food left in his bowl is the day I call the vet.

[keller27]

[quote=brunie's mom;761794]I think it is a bad idea for him to be "free feeding".
Free feeding often encourages dogs with bad food behaviours to guard their food.

Why would you believe the dog would feel the need to guard the free choice food?

[hokisteph5]

Originally Posted by keller27

Why would you believe the dog would feel the need to guard the free choice food?

AngelBunny said basically the same thing in her post about free feeding -

I do not recommend free feeding whether your have one dog or several. Dog #1 may well eat, hungry or not, to prevent Dog #2 or Dog #3 from getting any of his or her food. Free feeding in a multiple dog household also can encourage guarding behavior--the unhungry dog won't leave his or her bowl, protecting it from the other dogs.

[keller27]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I think it is a bad idea for him to be "free feeding".
Free feeding often encourages dogs with bad food behaviours to guard their food.

I would find him a secure, safe spot in your home to give him his food...

I also don't think you other dog should be close by while he is eating

[
Dogs should not be poked, hugged or loved while eating....just let them eat...end of story.

Your dog may not like other dogs at this stage of the game...and he may never like them,


Gina

What do you consider an unsafe place?
What do you consider a safe distance from the other dog

As an elder I have the right to touch and reassure my dogs while they are eating. I also have the right to take the food away or eat it myself (although I wouldn't do that) At this point he now prefers for me to be close by him while he eats and will stop eating if I walk out of the room. He went from I don't want anyone near me to I want you near me. He is learning to eat with the pack and is learning to enjoy it.

[b]He likes other dogs, but he is intimidated by them. (although he is getting better) The breeder took him away from the mother way too early (4 weeks), He missed 6 weeks of his socialization education as I didn't get him til 10 weeks. He was allowed to guard his food before I even got him.

I don't want to deprive him of the joy of the essential socialization activity such as play. Even though he was deprived of his education in his youth, He is a good boy and he deserves his education in his adult hood. I understand that its harder, but its worth it in the end.

[keller27]

Originally Posted by hokisteph5

AngelBunny said basically the same thing in her post about free feeding -

I do understand that not all dogs can be free fed, due to their specific situation. (physical, emotional, enviromental)

[brunie's mom]

[quote=keller27;761810]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

I think it is a bad idea for him to be "free feeding".
Free feeding often encourages dogs with bad food behaviours to guard their food.

Why would you believe the dog would feel the need to guard the free choice food?

Because though the dog may not want the food, they do not want anyone else to go near it either. This is why anyone that has a dog that resource guards is adviced to pick up toys, bones ,chewies etc....these things should not be laying around because the dog thinks it must guard items from people. The food is a resource.....and it is not advised to to have it sitting around.

Another reason why free feeding is not a good idea is that since you want to show leadership....you must control the food. Leaders control the food. If the dog has access to one of the most important things in life all of the time...it means you do not control the dog.

I suggest you find another trainer...someone that knows the breed.

Gina

[keller27]

Going out of town, so will post when I get back after the weekend.

[keller27]

[quote=brunie's mom;761820]

Originally Posted by keller27

Because though the dog may not want the food, they do not want anyone else to go near it either. This is why anyone that has a dog that resource guards is adviced to pick up toys, bones ,chewies etc....these things should not be laying around because the dog thinks it must guard items from people. The food is a resource.....and it is not advised to to have it sitting around.

Another reason why free feeding is not a good idea is that since you want to show leadership....you must control the food. Leaders control the food. If the dog has access to one of the most important things in life all of the time...it means you do not control the dog.

I suggest you find another trainer...someone that knows the breed.

Gina

I agree that you don't lay high value bones, chewies around the house. I am in control when they come out. Most dogs need a referee, just like children. I do not allow any dog to steal a chewie or bone from another dog. I will respectfully discipline them. This should show the victimized dog that I will care of the situation so that they don't have too. (aggression) I also create healthy boundries for my pack to follow whcih helps avoid confirontation between pack members. As far as being in control of the food, I am the one that refills the dish and he knows this. He also knows the only way the dish gets refilled is if he is polite. As well as I get to spend quality time with him when he is eating. The majority of dogs are naturally pack eaters. Not all dogs can share out of the same dish. but I have been sucessful in the round robin method.

[brunie's mom]

You have a food aggressive dog! All of the rules fly out the window. Forget about free feeding. Sounds like you've been watching too much of the Dog Whisperer.
The majority of domesticated dogs are not pack eaters. This is where you are running into trouble. These are dogs, not wolves.

Dogs should all have their own seperate, safe spot to eat....they should not have to worry about a dog next to them wanting to eat their food.

Since you have a food aggressive dog, I suggest that you start reading here to the advice given.

Gina

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by keller27

As well as I get to spend quality time with him when he is eating.

I prefer to spend quality time with my dogs on walks, during training sessions, and playing and/or cuddling with them on the bed or sofa. I don’t categorize time spent futzing w/ my dogs’ food as “quality”.

Based on comments you’ve posted, I must say you have some unusual ways of interacting with your dog. Where did you get your ideas? They’ve been in no books I’ve read, I haven’t heard of them in talking to other dog owners and trainers, and they weren’t anything I heard discusses in seminars/clinics/ workshops I’ve taken over the years.