Help!Advice! my female attacked

[LolaLaRue]

Ok i am a little freaked out, here is a little background my female, Lola, is 2, has had formal obedience training since 8 weeks, her last class was in November before having cruciate surgery, she is training for her CD, she is also a registered therapy dog with Delta and Good Dog, she has always gotten along with other dogs and has NEVER displayed any agression towards people or dogs, maybe a simple GRRR if someone trys to mount her, but thats all. Now the incident...I had Lola on a flat collar and we went to my training facility for a swim with my puppy, Baron, also a Rott 5.5 months, they get along great. as we entered the lobby my cousin was there with her 2 small dogs and another puppy from Barons puppy play group a 4.5 month old Airdale, as we walked in Baron walked over to meet Max, the airdale, and I started talking to my cousin all of a sudden completely unprovoked Lola Attacked the airdale, she wasnt playing she attacked him, she pulled the leash right out of my hands one of my trainers who was there and I pulled her off of him, he was OK, the guy picked up his puppy and we settled Lola down, as I was apologizing he put his puppy back on the floor, she lunged again and BROKE her leather collar we pulled her by her back legs off of him again, he was OK, thank goodness, I dont understand how my sweet, submissive, well socialized dog attacked a puppy, she has never done anything like this before, was it leash aggression? was she protecting Baron? Were there too many dogs and people in one spot? I brought her to the lake today and she played wonderfully with dogs of both sexes and all ages, I dont know what provoked this and am totally freaked out and embarressed about it, Does anyone have any insight as to why this happened, how to prevent it from ever happening again? After the incident she was acting completely normal and has been ever since, this happened on Friday???

[dadaa]

hi
i really understand how you feel not the same story as you (check my thread)
i just wanted to say i know its so weird when your rott does that like i said my story is different mine is male etc
i just wanted to let you know that i understand that you were shocked i was hysterical when it happened to me
sorry that i cant give you advice as you can see in my thread i need advice
just make sure that it cant happen again im always aware of other dogs
it sucks but thats how it is
good luck dadaa

[dadaa]

i just realised that it was a pup that is a bit weird for a dog attacking a puppy esspecially a female what did the trainer say?
dadaa

Originally Posted by dadaa

hi
i really understand how you feel not the same story as you (check my thread)
i just wanted to say i know its so weird when your rott does that like i said my story is different mine is male etc
i just wanted to let you know that i understand that you were shocked i was hysterical when it happened to me
sorry that i cant give you advice as you can see in my thread i need advice
just make sure that it cant happen again im always aware of other dogs
it sucks but thats how it is
good luck dadaa

[moondog]

Since you had a trainer there who saw this, what did the trainer have to say?

How far post surgery is she with the cruciate? Any possibility she's in pain? I'm counting 5 dogs in proximity when this happened, how large of a space were they in? How much excitement was there?

It's hard to venture a guess without more info....

[Baxter's Mom]

Is the Airdale a female? Was the Airdale and Baron playing together when this happened? Is Lola in heat?

was it leash aggression? was she protecting Baron? Were there too many dogs and people in one spot?

Has she ever shown that she's leash aggressive? I kind find that hard to believe considering she's a therapy dog, I don't see how you would have passed...

I do find it possible and probable that she could have been protecting Baron, but again, has she ever shown signs of protecting him before? ie- getting in the middle of Baron and another dog playing, blocking another dog from getting to Baron would be beginning signs for me...

You've brought her to group settings before, playing with multiple dogs and being around people so too many people and dogs seems unlikely to me also...

What do YOU think? You know her best? What was your initial reaction to the "situation"? Has anything happened since?

[LolaLaRue]

The trainer who was there is still kind of in training herself, she told me to ask my trainer, the guy who owns the place, in class on Tuesday. He is a behavorist and aggression specialist, she said she was going to tell him what happened and joked that she doubt he would believe her because Lola is a very calm, submissive dog who plays welll with others.

The Airdale was a male, and yes him and Baron were playing, he was the only dog in the lobby she had never met, but he is a puppy

Lola is spayed and she is 8 weeks post cruciate surgery, we just had her x rays on Wednesday and got the go ahead to resume normal play.

She actually just got certified with Good Dog last week, and Delta last March. She has had no issues in the past with leash aggression

She hasnt really been around many other dogs in the last 8 weeks with Baron because of her surgery, they have all been dogs that she knows.

I am completely baffled by this, I am so upset and freaked, she is/was such a great example of a well trained friendly Rottweiler I have NO IDEA what provoked this, I dont even think the puppy approached her. But to break through a leather collar...I just dont know. I am hoping it was a one time thing, like I said she was fine at the lake today playing as usual

Thank you for all your replies, it helps to know some have had the same experiences or to see factors I didnt think of.

[spidey]

There is all kinds of communication which goes on between dogs which is pretty much invisible to us. If this is truly a freak occurrence (which is what it sounds like), I'd simply be aware that your dog may have a problem with terriers (which is not at all an uncommon issue, terriers can be VERY sparky with other dogs) or may be reaching an age when she doesn't want to put up with rude behaviour from other dogs, and ensure that you stay aware of, and manage, her environment appropriately (which we all should be doing with our dogs anyway). It's also not uncommon for bitches to put the smackdown on puppies much faster and firmer than male dogs - puppies seem to have a much more potent "get out of jail free" card with males than with some females, especially when they're at that age when they're testing the waters with every dog they meet. I would not be so quick to assume that this was truly caused by Lola.

I don't know that you really need to freak out about this or undertake a massive investigation to figure out why this happened (although I definitely do understand from personal experience how upsetting this is), dogs are entitled to occasionally dislike other dogs, they sort out their disagreements by posturing and shouting at each other, that's all they can do, and if there were no injuries, then this likely wasn't as serious a situation as you're thinking it is (generally, the louder an argument is, the less serious it is in terms of intent to harm). This doesn't mean your dog suddenly has a temperament problem, it doesn't mean she's not still a sweet, friendly dog, it simply means that she had a problem with THIS dog (and it could very possibly be the other dog who instigated the disagreement, it's rarely as clear as we like to think, the dog who actually makes the first physical/vocal move isn't always the one who truly starts the argument).

If I were you, I'd simply chalk this up to dogs just being dogs sometimes, and remind yourself that even the most tolerant, dog-friendly dogs don't love EVERY dog they meet, and situations like this are pretty common occurrences in the dog world. If Lola had actually "attacked" the other dog, there would be injuries, if dogs intend to hurt each other, they hurt each other, most of dog-dog interaction is about AVOIDING injuring each other, no matter what it seems like to humans (all that wrestling and yelling is almost never about harming each other, it's almost always about settling a disagreement). It's good that you're so concerned, but I really don't know that I agree that this is something you need to be freaking out about - be aware that not all dogs stay as friendly to other dogs as they mature, and manage Lola and her environment appropriately.

[LolaLaRue]

Thanks Spidey, I am sure you are right and I am over reacting, its just I have spent so much time into training both my dogs so things like this dont happen, we are a permanent fixture at that facility and I have to see this guy 3 times a week (we do puppy socializing, Barons getting a little old for it but they still play nice) The guy with the Airdale is a kind of nervous type and first time dog owner so I feel really bad. Maybe Lola has been a bit spoiled lately because of getting a new puppy in September and having surgery in November, It happened so fast that you forget the details, Im sure there were signs I didnt see, I will pay more attention from now on, I guess I just thought I didnt have to because she has always been so friendly, lesson learned...never let your guard down

[Anne]

If it's of any consolation to you at all, my girl did something like this when she also was recovering from TPLO. We were at the hydrotherapy pool and she growled at and lunged towards a Staffy whilst they were both in the water. She was about 20 months old at the time. She didn't take her eyes off the Staffy even when she got out of the pool and clearly didn't like this dog. Needless to say we left.

She had never shown any agression whatsoever towards another dog before this and never has in the 4+ years since then. She will be 6yo in a few days. Some communication took place between these two dogs that I missed.

We have a very safe off leash park here where she plays with other dogs of a variety of breeds and has never been anything but friendly to every dog she meets. This Staffy was the only exception, ever.

To this day I am mystified at what happened at the pool. But it seems to have been a one off event. She is a submissive dog and this was totally out of character for her. She is totally non reactive to a barking/growling dog and simply sits close by my side.

I am of no help to you but thought I would tell you about our experience.

[spidey]

I have spent so much time into training both my dogs so things like this dont happen

Training is very important, but you cannot train a dog to not be a dog, you can just control their behaviour. One thing which may help you is to learn more about dog body language so that you can be more aware of what is being "said" between dogs so that you can possibly head things like this off in future, there are lots of books which have photographs and good explanations - Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language" and Patricia McConnell's "For The Love of a Dog" are just two examples.

[frontierrots]

were you ACTUALLY paying attention to the dog (ie LOOKING at her) or were you just being a leash post?

With a dog in public ANY dog you must always be paying attention to what they are doing and what they are looking at and how. To be a leash post is totally unacceptable

Dogs speak to each other non verbally and much passes between them through eye contact and body language. I have seen a great many dogs who are great with other dogs (many breeds on both sides) who look at another dog and "don't like what the other dog said". The owners always think the spat is "out of the blue" and have no idea of what transpired immediately before hand

Some dogs also are "fun police" and do not put up with any horsing around from other dogs. Bea is one of those. NO bad manners or rough housing allowed or she puts a stop to it

[Anne]

I must say I was not paying too much attention.

I had just put my dog in the pool. I learnt that day to watch my dog. She had never done that before and never has since.....but I watch my dog now and she's taught me a lot about dog body language now.

[Bruce Lanthier]

Spidey has made an excellent post. I would like to add that if this were a serious attack there would have been some bleeding from somewhere. I certainly do not want to minimize what happened but some bad interactions between dogs appear very ferocious to us humans but when thinking back about the closeness of the dogs and the sharpness of their teeth and the ability to use those teeth like a surgeon then, if there is no blood or injury, it is my thought that the attack was less of an attack and more of a bad interaction. To do this to a 4.5 month old pup is curious though. It sounds like a very serious correction from your dog to a pup but, as spidey has pointed out, it does not seem clear as to why this happened.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Baxter's Mom

Is the Airdale a female? Was the Airdale and Baron playing together when this happened? Is Lola in heat?


Has she ever shown that she's leash aggressive? I kind find that hard to believe considering she's a therapy dog, I don't see how you would have passed...

I do find it possible and probable that she could have been protecting Baron, but again, has she ever shown signs of protecting him before? ie- getting in the middle of Baron and another dog playing, blocking another dog from getting to Baron would be beginning signs for me...

You've brought her to group settings before, playing with multiple dogs and being around people so too many people and dogs seems unlikely to me also...

What do YOU think? You know her best? What was your initial reaction to the "situation"? Has anything happened since?

re: Therapy certification. I got one on Pooh, who probably shouldn't have passed.... if I knew then what I know now..LOL. Dog/dog aggression does not mean a dog will be aggressive with humans. Most of the time, it's quite the opposite.

It sounds as though Amanda is spot on with her advice. Freaking out about this does no one any good, not you, not the dog. Just be more situationally aware. Be aware of her body language. Sounds as though there was plenty of hubbub at the time, and now that you know she *could * react in a less than pleasant way, you may want to speak with the head trainer regarding setting her up so that you can correct this behavior in a controlled environment, and desensitize her to dogs she may not care for.

Bottom line, there will likely be other dogs she doesn't care for... however, she should always respect your wishes, and obey a nice 'leave it' command which can then be turned into a controlled behavior (sit, down, eye contact with you, etc...)

Perhaps the terrier-ist could be used for this type of desensitization and you can buy the owner dinner.

Dust off your boots now, and go enjoy your dogs.

[Baxter's Mom]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

re: Therapy certification. I got one on Pooh, who probably shouldn't have passed.... if I knew then what I know now..LOL. Dog/dog aggression does not mean a dog will be aggressive with humans. Most of the time, it's quite the opposite.

I understand that... I was simply asking a few questions to try to get a more clearer picture on the incident... I agree, as it sounds like a isolated incident, that it's nothing to freak out about, but to be aware of it. She should probably monitor to see if Lola tries to react to another terrier(or dog)...

re: Therapy certification. I know that dog/dog aggression doesn't mean the dog will be aggressive with humans, but to get some certs, you are tested with how the dog reacts to other dogs before you can get the cert... TDI, for example, you have to have your CGC before you can test for TDI and the dog has to react well with other dogs to even get your CGC. But she was asking about leash aggression, and I simple found it hard to believe that IF she had to be tested with dogs to get her cert, how did she pass if her dog was leash aggressive? Maybe I didn't pose my question clearly.

Anyway, that's all... I like Amanda's advice too...