devastated, my adult dog attacked my new rotty pup...

[voyager]

Hi,
I have been reading a lot here and think there is great info. This is my first post.
I will try to be brief but describe everything. I had a female rottweiler and then adopted a rescue mix german Sheppard x Bernese Mountain dog. She was 9 months at the time and had already passed to 3 different owners (not du to her, but humans as I was told). The 2 dogs got along fine. They had two or three agressive incidents (barking, growing, display etc) and were separated but then it was settled and no problem. They would play together and both sleep in my bed room side by side. The rott died of cancer (at almost 11yrs) in March. I was devastated and got a new puppy 3-4 weeks ago. The G.S. mix dog is kind to cats and loves them, "scratches" them and never hurts them, they in turn lick her nose! she just loves everybody. When the pup arrived she wasn't sure at first but adapted ok within minutes. I never left them unsupervised though. They would play together, and the G.S. mix played carefully with the pup and would even get on her back and have the little one climb on her playing. She did display dominance when the pup approched her food bowl once, and I stopped her and corrected her (strong NO and tell her to go) so I made sure it wouldn't happen again and fed both very much appart (the pup in it's cage on a different level of the house).
Then sudenly one morning, as we were all slepping, the pup woke and walked towards the G.S. mix dog, who as fast as lightning, jumped on the pup who submitted and screamed for her life. I got up and tried to call her off, but no response whatsoever, she was "not reachable", she was growning and biting the puppy, shaking the poor little body on the floor, I took her away physically and removed her, "trowing" her on the other side of the bed. Then I reached for the puppy still on her back screaming. She was hurt, very hurt and bleeding. I had to take her to the vet, she had lost a lot of blod. Now she may have nerve damage (facial) and a deaf ear, but time will tell if she will heal and to wich extent. She is holding her head crocked even after a week and a half of incident and can't locate where sounds come from. Her eye blinking, lip, and ear movements are compromised. The vet said it could come back or not. I cross my fingers.

The morning of the incident, Eiji pooped in the house while I was trying to see how injured the pup was in the washroom, close to the washroom door. I attribute it to nervousness I think. She was so low and submissive when I came back. Didn't show any agressivness to the pup since but they are separated all times. Both sometimes cry on each side of the pen and seem to want to play, the tails are waging. But I am not ready to try anything and the pup must have a chance to heal completely before anything is even considered.

Now I just don't know what to do!
I separated both my dogs since then and didn't put them together. It is a lot of management, but no way I want the adult close to the pup for now.
I am worried... is this a dangerous dog (adult)?
can I ever trust her again? find a way to solve this or something I did wrong?
I have a hard time trusting her now... and wonder if I will be able to put them together again.

I wonder if the pup will ever heal to a satisfying level.
I just don't know what to do anymore! I am still in shock. I am writing to you because I know there is lots of experience here and hope some can offer advice or share experience. I am just overwelmed and devastated by this situation.

Ps. My mix G.S. dog is obedience trained and submissive to humans. She listens amazingly well and is very eager to please so I don't understand what happened. Maybe something in her past, before I got her, don't know.

[GypsysMom]

Earlier in your post you said you dont leave them un-supervised then this happened while they were unsupervised, you were asleep. IMO it wasnt her past that made her do this No dog should be aggressive nor oveerly submissive with humans (so I read) Maybe this pup woke her, You dont know for sure since you were sleeping, It seems as tho the resident dog felt threatned by the new one and it seems as though she showed you signs from the begining (guarding food etc,) They NEVER should have been left alone when you were asleep the pup should have been crated.....

I have a 12 week old puppy and a 2 yr old American bulldog Chopper wrestles with her and growls (in a play way) they share water bowls and food (when gypsy sneaks to his bowl) But I still wont leave them alone together he may bite a bit harder then he usually does when they play and then the pup will suffer.

Im sorry this happened but it shouldnt have the dogs should have been introduced on neutral grounds and attention given to the resident dog so no jealousy takes place, And having one or both dogs crated when you cant supervise Now this pup may be scared for life

[BostonRott]

Where were you sleeping? Where was the GS mix sleeping? Where was the puppy approaching from?

I.e. were you and the GS mix on the bed and the puppy approached from the floor?

Are both of these dogs female? If so, I think you will have to keep them separate forever, assuming the puppy lives.

[voyager]

I now learned the hard way that if we all are in the same room sleeping, indeed the dogs are just like unsupervised. I wrongly assumed that my presence would make my authority respected. I agree now the pup should have been crated. I had lots of dogs in my life and never any bad experience like that so I could not possibly imagine such a thing could happen. My sorry mistake.
We were all 3 of us in my room, my boyfriend and I sleep in the bed and both dogs were on the floor. This is the way is used to be with my former adult rott and with my 2 previous dogs as well, without any problems.
The first night, both of their coussins (large pillows big enough for them to sleep on) were side by side. The G. S. had the place she used to have with my former adult rott, and all was fine, I was in heaven. The second night, the G. S. decided to sleep a bit further from the pup. I thought because she wanted to be quiet and not bothered by the pup, so I respected that and moved her pillow to the spot she picked, still no problems. I was waking all the time, to take the pup out to pee and also since she was playing I couldn't sleep, and worked on training her to stay on her pillow and play with her toys quietly. I wouldn't let her go to the other dog because I didn't want them to play in the room, this is not allowed here, so I can sleep (eventually).
That morning I just didn't have a chance to get her. I herd her go to the G. S. Mix and she was attacked before I could even try to get to her.
Both dogs are females, so your reply Boston Rott worries me a lot.
Both were females before to (my previous rott and the G. S. mix).
These dogs don't hate each other, they even cry to be together and both tails are wagging. What got into the G. S. that morning is hard to grasp, but maybe it is normal behavior and I just don't know enough about it. I think you have lots more experience than me with dogs (from reading your other posts on this forum).
I am very interested in your advice.
the pup's life is not threatened anymore. She survived and doesn't seem to scared emotionnaly miraculously, but maybe it is to soon to know.
I just also wonder if she doesn't regain hearing in the injured ear, what kind of life she can have???
The vet was suggesting cautiously to put her to sleep if she doesn't heal because it would be dangerous for her to live without beeing able to tell where sounds come from... e.g. cars.
I wonder on that to... anyone has experience with an unilaterally deaf dog?

[GypsysMom]

Just because a dog wags its tail doesnt always mean its happy, Also I was told (not sure how accurate it is) is that 2 females that get in a fight can be alot worse then 2 males, I have 3 dogs my biggest is a male and my rottie pup is a female with my lil dog a spayed female as well. As for being deaf in one ear Im sure with proper training and commitment she will be ok, people live with deaf dogs and they are fine I just hope for you and your pups sake the resident dog doesnt attack again and kill her

[BostonRott]

Yes, bitch fights are FAR worse than dog fights. There are studies, which have been quoted in threads here, showing that bitch fights are worse (intersex aggression).

My warning about two females not getting along is my standard warning to anyone who attempts this. It is simply something that you must always have in the back of your mind.

I really can't begin to guess what happened. I wasn't there, didn't see it and don't know your older dog. It could have been that she felt the puppy over-stepped it's territorial bounds. It could be that it was dark and the puppy spooked her. It could be a hatred of the puppy. I really can't say.

How the tail wags is as important as "that it is wagging." A tail wagging low (below the level of the spine/topline) indicates a submissive and/or worried dog. A dog who is saying "I'm not a threat." If I remember correctly, this is one of Turgid's calming signals (from her book). A tail wagging in big arcs at level with the topline is a very happy, confident dog. This is what you see with "I'm going for a walk!" or "Someone I really like just came home."

A tail that is really high, and not covering much area (in an arc) is usually a sign of a dog in a heightened state. It can indicate that the dog is ready to fight, if necessary. It can be part of a posturing stance.

These explanations of mine are crude at best, hopefully they will help.

[RottieMom51503]

I would never trust this GSD again around the puppy. The puppy is at a Stage right now where everything should be positive. When things such as this occur during this stage it can make them have a fearful outlook on the world and then your in alot of trouble especially with a dog of a Rottweiler strength.

One thing in your post that caught my eye.. (maybe I am thinking about it wrong). When they had the incident over food and you said you made her leave, what do you mean? Did you make the GSD leave the bowl or did you make the Puppy leave the GSD Alone?

How old is the puppy? How long ago was the Gsd in training?

[GypsysMom]

I got the impression she made the Gs leave and yelled at her for growling over her food dish, I myself dont think this dog will ever accept this puppy, I did alot of planning and reading before I got GYpsy so CHopper would accept her, and luckily he did.

[RottieMom51503]

The more dog smart members can correct me if I am wrong but I don't think yelling at GSD to leave the food bowl was a good way to tackle the problem but rather encourage it. The GSD was telling the puppy back off this is my food. The owner then tells the GSD to leave the food. The owner should have made the puppy leave and reinforced that the puppy wouldn't bother the elder dog while eating therefore the elder dog wouldn't associate the puppy being a threat to her food. The GSD should be able to eat her meal without being harassed by the puppy. I would either put the GSD in a crate or room where she doesn't have to be bothered by the puppy while she eats or put the puppy up while the GSD eats.

I believe when you bring in a younger dog, the younger dog must learn rules and respect for everyone including already resident dogs. The resident dogs have to come first still otherwise the feel their role in the family is being threatened.

[GypsysMom]

I completly agree My Little shih/tzu is very protective of her food but I have never yelled at her, one growl makes the others back off, even the 80 pound dog knows its time to eat his own food, I think the pup should have been crated while sleeping, activities with the resident dog only, and when she cant be supervised. I personally could not have Gypsy sleep in my room at this time if she didnt have her crate she probally would only take small cat naps, I am a firm beleiver in crate training

[Anne]

How old is the GSD mix now? Was she fast asleep when the puppy went to her? Could she have been startled and attacked before she was fully awake?

Either way, I agree that if you sent the older dog away over the food incident then that was not a good move. The puppy should have been taken away to let the older dog eat in peace.

I do have two female Rottweilers. However one is 5 yo and the other one is 13yo. The age difference makes it more favorable for two dogs of the same sex living together. I also have a female Cavalier who is 11 months...again a decent age gap. They all get along very well together and have never had an altercation. The Rotties do not hassle the Cavaliers. All my dogs are desexed.

Regarding deaf dogs. I had a male deaf GSD living with a hearing female Rottweiler. The GSD was trained with hand signals and there were no problems. Deafness is not a good reason to have a dog put to sleep IMO.

It is your responsibility to keep this little puppy safe. She must not be around anywhere there are cars/traffic and where she could be hit. This goes for all dogs either deaf or hearing dogs.

I agree with everyone here that you need to keep these two dogs seperate from eachother.

[Ilovemypuppy]

An adult dog that attacks a puppy is indeed, in my opinion, dangerous.

[SuziHeaton]

Originally Posted by RottieMom51503

The more dog smart members can correct me if I am wrong but I don't think yelling at GSD to leave the food bowl was a good way to tackle the problem but rather encourage it.

I think this is an excellent point--these two dogs should have been introduced on neutral ground--the GSD's food bowl is hardly neutral. I think it's only natural for the GSD to be threatened by this pup if she's being scolded for protecting her food bowl.

My advice would be to get a behaviorist/trainer to the house to evaluate the situation and make recommendations based on this visit. Perhaps these two dogs can live in harmony together with a little guidance from a professional. Or, to the contrary, perhaps a professional can establish that these two animals should definitely remain separated and offer advice on making that work.

Either way good luck to the OP!!! This sounds like a stressful situation.

[voyager]

The food incident: I removed the puppy, but felt that the G.S. over reacted. So I used loud voice (more that screaming) to put her back in her place, took the puppy away with me and left her to eat alone. No way I would take her away from her food and force her to submit to a puppy. Since I saw food could be a problem, I never allowed the pup even close to the G. S.'s eating bowl and location. They both ate in different floors and the pup in it's cage so the adult couldn't try to steel her food. This way all was safe.
My previous rott used to growl and bark to protect her food but never went to bite anyone and she only did it to cats and dogs. The G, S, had a to severe reaction, that is what I wanted to calm.
I did put a LOT of efforts to pet her and encourage her and make her feel she still had love and attention from me.
The puppy lives in the house and so does the G. S. When I first arrived with the puppy I introduced them in the living room. (I know now, would have been better in a nutral territory, but it was around 8pm, and was getting dark out). They lived together, and for 2 weeks seemed ok.
We would go for walks in the woods together, and the 2 dogs played. The G. S. was event trying to show games my old rott had showed her. At times they really had fun.
The day this happened, the room was not dark, it was morning, I don't think the gs was sleeping deep, it was around when I wake up, but I didn't see her, I am assuming here based on usual experiences.
I will look closely at the way tails wag, thanks Boston Rott.

I think maybe that the gs feels sometimes unsure about the pup. She seems unstable. Sometimes to want to play with her and be with her, other times not have her near her, othertimes jealous and sometimes maybe insecure and threathened. Could she just have been badly socialized?
or maybe over attached to me since we are her 5th home in life?

Last question.
Is is normal for an adult female to almost kill a pup?
I know for sure, that if I hadn't been in the room, I would have came back to a dead pup - no doubt.

as sadly as this can be I have wondered if I shouldn't put her to sleep.
She would die to make me happy, but I am worried about her temperament and possible worse problems now (we have my boyfriends kids on weekends, and she has always been super nice to them, and they are older and nice to her, very ok)

I know a profesionnal trainer in my area and he said it could be managed. He knows my g.s. and I will go see him as soon as the pup is healed enough.
I hope he is right. I am just so scare now, don't want anything to happen again, cause this time I know I couldn't live with the g. s. anymore.

[voyager]

Hi again,
I forgot to answer one question,
the g.s. is 3 and a half years old now. I got her at 9 months.