devastated, my adult dog attacked my new rotty pup...

[RottieGirl86]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

not all dogs, not even females like puppies. However the normal reaction is to growl and then snap at (without contact) or grab and release quick and lightly to scare away.

For your dog to do the damage she did shows that she has no bite inhibition knowledge and if she feels that she needs to discipline the puppy again, her response will likely be over the top AGAIN.

I am quite sure that I, a Rott owner for 21 years, would never be allowing any puppy near that dog ever again

I agree 100%. The GSD knwos this is a puppy- a baby. Taht was a huge over reaction on the GSD's part.

I had an 13 year old mix dog - she was very snappy - bark/growl, but she never attacked and broke skin on Athena when she was baby. We would re-direct the baby and let the old girl rest. The proper adult dog controlling a puppy - I saw between my brother's male rott and Athena. He'd let her be jumping around and playing, then he'd pin her, but never hurt her. Older dogs ( ofr the most part) are pretty tolerant with puppies.

I would not trust the older dog at all. When I moved out, I later got a male dog as 2 females will not always get along.

These dogs will need to be seperated for life. You will have to have a plan in case something happens again, even if it means keeping certain things on hand at all times. - leash or whatever to break them apart.

If you got her 3-4 weeks ago, I'm assuming she's about 12 to 16 weeks? wow, you will have to make sure everything is positive from now on, so she won't be fearful.

[voyager]

about the dog not knowing bite inibition, I tend to disagree or maybe I don't understand what it really implies. The gs adult was super gentle and patient when she played with the pup. She also plays gently with cats, even put their head (wich I don't really like) in her mouth and the cats got used to it and lick her nose! she "scratches" them with her teeth, (just like a dog would scratch himself with his teeth) and the cats just love it. She did this a bit to the puppy to, so I tought she liked it, and I think she does strangly.
I do agree it is a HUGE over reaction and that is my concern.
I spoke to one trainer (I will consult 3) yesterday and she said it happens and some dogs just can't stand puppies because they just never stop. Mine really never stops and play very agressively, and she has long way to learn with bite inibition. The trainer thinks my adult just had a fit, and also both beeing females and not fixed doesn't help. She said to manage them separate a lot for a year, allow them small amounts of SUPERVISED time and my idea of putting a mussle on the g.s. at those time is good. She also said I must calm the pup and take her to nice dogs to pups and teach to play more calmly, and mostly to STOP when I say to stop and not allow the pup to exasperate my g.s. She said that the g.s. probably felt that I didn't stop the pup and it was to much for her so she took it into her own hands (sort of speak). I do hope she is right. It sounds like SO MUCH work...
I am not sure if I will be able to trust the g.s. again one day. She is winy now and both seem to try to want to tear me appart so they each have one half!
The pup is now 11 weeks and a few days. She is quite a handfull and sometimes bites hard. I am trying to teach her not to, it is pretty unpleasant on my hands (but you all have been there!).
I will consult both other trainers and update the post.
Opinions on the first trainer's opinion are very welcome...
thanks

[voyager]

sorry I forgot,
the first trainer also said that I should tire out the puppy so she is calm before I put them together, so she will be more quiet and calm and anoy the g.s. less. I should also stop the puppy from exagerating so the g.s. doesn't feel she has to do the discipline, I do.
I felt that I should allow them to play supervised and stop them before the gs gets tired so she remains on her apetite and eager to play. She loves to play and had a lot of fun with the pup before. So I figure if she sees the good in it and no bad maybe I have a chance.
I should also socialize the pup with other dogs that are trustworthy.
I think it makes sense, but it is lots of efforts, but nothing in life is free (lol!).

[RottieMom51503]

I disagree a little with your trainer or maybe I am not understanding his logic for this method.

I wouldn't allow these two dogs together unless two people are present. I'm not sure about muzzling the GS. Isn't that gonna cause frustration? Also I wouldn't tie your puppy out. When Hubby is around maybe it would be a good idea for you both to work one dog where the two dogs are in view of each other for awhile once they are doing good with that allow them some time together after they have worked, this way the are mentally and physically worn out and not so apt to annoy each other. I always work my dogs seperate before allowing play time together.

[frontierrots]

bite inhibition= the proper and APPROPRITE use of force with their mouth

Your dog used NONE in her discipline of the pup. If you had not been there the pup would be dead. That is ZERO appropriate use of teeth.

I am a trainer and I totally disagree. I would NEVER allow the GSD with another puppy ever again

[llwaxan]

Diane--simply and perfectly stated.

Voyager, it really is that clear; for the pups sake, your GSD's sake, and yours as well, please listen to Diane and the other's on here with multiple years of experience.

You needn't like something to accept it. :(

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by voyager

The trainer thinks..both beeing females and not fixed doesn't help.

I agree with your trainer's assessment on this.

Is there a reason your mix isn't spayed? Sometimes bitches get cranky when coming into season.

[voyager]

The g.s. mix is not near being into season, she was 2 months ago. She is not spayed because I take responsibility for her not beeing bread' (never out alone) and I live on 12 acres land, so no close dogs really and I figured that she didn't need to go through the suffering, but I am reconsidering getting her spayed now. Before I had no reasons.

could it be (I am just hoping to understand and learn from this horror) that the gs didn't learn proper bite inibition from her first owner as a pup?

I got her a 9 months and she never bit our hands at all and never had much interest in any sort of toys. She has lots of prey but won,t run after a ball, no interest, but she will run after a dog who does. So maybe she has stepped from bitting to hard to 0 biting, and didn't learn to bite smoothly so there is something lacking. She did learn some I suppose with her litermates and can control her mouth very well and be very gentle when she wants to. Maybe she lacks how to communicate "back off" or give a normal warning, eg growl and snap.

You are right that if I hadn't been there the pup would be dead.

It is so weird because if the pup is wining she goes to tend to it with a very gentle way, this am the pup cried because she had passed a paw outside the cage and didn't know how to get it back in and the g.s. got up to get to her, seeming all worried (not at all territorial or inquisitive), just very gentle and I had to move her to help the pup just put the paw back in. Whenever the pup needs to go outside for potty the g.s tells me and wines, she is always right... so it is weird to think she had been so agressive before.
It is a tough one to figure out for me, since I love both and feel extremely responsible to both dogs. The g.s I rescued had lots of houses and is super obedient and nice to everyone so it would seem so unfair to relocate her. The pup might be deaf and have sequels for the rest of her life, so that is hard to, to relocate. I feel I am owing to both...
but I am thinking out loud here

In conclusion, do most of you feel this g.s. is a untrustable dog ever and I shouldn't eve put them back together?

I will take an apointment as well with the local shelter's consultant, I am sure she has seen her share of behavior problems.
Understand me well, I really feel I owe it to the dogs to make the right decision and pressure me a lot. This is very serious for me and I want to make the best possible actions. So I am very happy to have all your help and opinions.
thanks

[winniecnm]

I am 1000% in agreement with Diane. This GSD would never be with another pup - probably not with another dog for that matter - again.

I really hope you understand the seriousness of what has happened here. The pup has been attacked by a housemate at a very critical time of development, learning to trust and gaining confidence in its surroundings. This is not something to take lightly at all, now you have to not just put your time and effort into figuring out what the GSD's problem is, but also double that effort in making sure the pup turns out OK.

[Sandpaper]

Hello ~
I'm sorry for your 'Lil Pup ... We also had a
similar problem with our Rotty and a new
adult male Cat w/o claws ... The Fixed Jaw of our
Dog surrounded the cat's belly... playful fun
at first ~ Then, we solved that by placing
a Soft/Gentle Fitted Muzzle on the Rotty
Only worn during a One Hour Play-Time ...
Over time they have learned to trust
one another ~ So Far ... So Good !

[voyager]

I know excatly how bad timing and bad period this can be for a pup, believe me! you can't even begin to imagine how bad I feel.
I am giving homeopathic remedies to the pup, for trauma and so far she is doing well. Even interested in playing with the GSD. I am not, for now anyways, but she is not afraid. I will see how she is with different dogs (SAFE ones) when she is fully recovered.
Thanks a lot Sandpaper, maybe there is hope.
With a muzzle, the GSD, if I can get her to be confortable with one, won't be able to do much harm, with supervision OF COURSE.

[Wolfram]

I am sorry to hear about your current situation. Having a dog fight between two housemates is very traumatic.

In this situation, I would say that the problem was based on territory and dominance in the GS and lack of knowledge on your part.

Having your dog fixed would have been the first thing to do unless you were deciding to breed her. This has health benefits as well as behavorial plusses as well.

The second big issue was time line. You brought the GS pup into a home with a larger and older dog. This pup was second fiddle. Once your older dog passed away, your GS moved up in the pack. She is now the Alpha female. You brought a brand new female puppy in the mix (not advisable) and then allowed her to have fairly free access to the same space as your GS alpha female. In all the training books that I have researched, the big NO-NO's are same sex, unfixed animals and allowing the second dog too much, too fast. That puppy should have been under lock and key most of the time. The GS should have been the queen and should have felt like she was at no time being replaced. You could take the puppy out for small jaunts, but it would have to go back in its home. The GS should have had the opportunity to warm up to it. No sleeping together. No eating together. No playing together at first. You cannot just push this puppy on your Alpha and expect it to accept it.

You stated a few times that you did not think about bite inhibition, however this is something that you are responsble for, not the previous owners. Had this GS bitten a neighbor's kid, blaming the past owner's for lack of training would not fly. Bite inibition is all on you. You have to know your own dog.

Prior to this attack, I would have said that you had a chance to make this work for these two dogs. After this attack, I have to say that from the articles I have read by some national trainers, it does not look promising. My suggestion is to rehome the puppy. Try to find her a loving home where she can grow up to be a well socialized dog in spite of what happened to her.

If you decide to keep both dogs, NEVER leave them alone together, EVER. You will come home one day to one or both of them dead or seriously injured. That is just my two cents worth....

Wolfram

[fostermom]

I was recently given a 7 week old rotti pup which I had for a week until I got her into a rotti rescue. I have four resident dogs, two males and two females....all of which get along well (and three of which did well with the pup).
My alpha male ignored the pup, my other male attempted to play with her although she intimidated him (she was a VERY assertive little girl with sharp teeth !!!), my four year old female mother-henned her, and my senior female lab wanted nothing to do with her. The lab warned her off a couple of times with a snap/growl. However, one evening I was trying to wash a few dishes and the pup was by my feet....I took my eyes off the pup for maybe 30 seconds when I hear the puppy screaming in the other room....she had evidently approached the lab and the lab bit her. This however was NOT a full out attack geared to kill the pup but the puppy was bitten on the muzzle badly enough that the next day the bite had abscessed and necessitated a quick trip to the vets.
I had already known this female lab (who we believe had been used as a breeder by her former owner) wasn't very tolerant of puppies and kittens...but she routinely does well with all ADULT fosters we bring into the house. So I suppose it is POSSIBLE (since she had already lived peaceably with another female adult rotti) that she might do ok with the pup once it matures and settles down...but I wouldn't take any chances with the pups safety trying to find out. Two females is always iffy, and I wouldn't even try to keep two dominant same sex dogs in the same house. Personally, I'd look into rehoming the pup...NOT the gsd ...as it's hard to constantly monitor the safety of the pup as I found out the hard way.