Beginnings of resource guarding?

[plato23]

My boy Plato is 21 weeks, about 2 weeks ago he let out a very protective and mean sounding growl/bark when my nephew wandered upon him while he was chewing on a beef ear. Then I started to correct him and my dad/brother/nephew were behind me, which I think kind of made him scared and he persisted, then finally took it into his crate.

Recently, with new toys, while not being aggressive with them, he is taking things that are new to him into his crate and then coming out after he sees it is okay, I assume at least. He also takes certain things and REFUSES to open his mouth, the oddest things, like sticks and tissues, he LOVES tissues and paper more than food almost, lol.

Now with compressed rawhide and his food...i can literally stick my face in his bowl or take his toy from him with my mouth and he just looks at me, sometimes licks me.

I feel like he recognizes my alpha partially. He is still a little mouthy, but its getting better. My trainers solution for this problem is to now let him have only his bone at all times, and pick up all his chew toys/etc., which is really only 2-3 other things(a squeaky fluffy toy, a ball and a nylabone for when he is in the crate when no one can watch him), and when I do give him something new, make him do a "down" for it. Everything else is to be given for 5-10min increments, and I am not sure I like this idea. Also since the beef ear incident, I've been warned to not give him anything along the lines of a marrow bone from the butcher/beef ear/sheep hoof cause it can cause that behavior, as I have read on this forum as well, this I understand.

I mean, if the event comes that it happens again and he gets very aggressive over guarding something good, what is your suggestion on this matter? I know that many people are opposed to it, but my trainer suggests rolling them on their side, holding them there til they calm down and then crating him as a time out. I understand the risks, and probably I should accept the fact I am getting a bite, I don't have a problem with this.

I just like to get other peoples feedback because I know there are ALOT of knowledged and experienced dog owners on this board and I am sure many of you have been tested by your dog during that 6month to a year period. I know the goal is to avoid this confrontation, but if it arises...any ideas?

[AngelBunny]

You may consider finding a trainer whose training methods have kept pace with advances in dog psychology--rolling your dog onto his side and holding him there, and crating as part of punishment, reflect old, discredited methods.

How old is your nephew?

When my dogs--personal and fosters--get a frozen raw beef marrow bone, all the dogs are put in separate rooms and are left to enjoy their goodie in peace. All my dogs--fosters included--are good about giving me their goodie if asked. Once in awhile I'll ask the dog for the goodie, admire it, and give it back to the dog, rewarding the "Good clever dog!" in an admiring, very pleased tone and a pat on the head. Then I leave the dog alone. I don't have to prove to my dogs that I'm in charge by harrassing them when they have a treat--they are left alone. Since all dogs coming into our program have tested well with high value items and food, it's been easy to train the fosters to give me their goodies if I ask. (Some have been more piggy than others, but trading for another yummy and establishing the fact I'm the one in charge before giving the dog something like a raw beef marrow bone has always worked, and I've been fostering mainly adult males for seven years.)

I wouldn't deprive my dogs of something as lovely as frozen raw beef marrow bones. My dogs share with me (tho they don't share at all with each other--which is why they all get items like marrow bones in separate rooms of the house with closed doors or baby gates keeping them separate).

I don't feed rawhide or pig's ears or hooves--I don't think they're particularly healthy.

My suggestion is that you leave Plato alone when he has something yummy to enjoy. He willingly gives items to you, so why harrass and bug him? You've made your point, he accepts it, let him be.

[plato23]

My nephew is almost 2, and it was only the second child Plato was exposed to...I suspect if I wandered by him while he chewed on it he may have not even cared.

Like I said, I know lots of you aren't fans of rolling a dog, but I am sure there are some who swear by it. If the situation arises and he is 8 months old, hormones raging, and decides "hey if I growl and become defensive when someone wanders near me while I am eating, or I put up a fuss about coming into the house from the yard", BOTH are which of in the realm of possibility, is letting this go and trying to correct it homeopathically going to send the wrong message, that I am a pushover?

Also, if when Plato chews on a marrowbone, if trying to take it from him just for a second to see if he displays this type of behavior elicits a growl/defensive behavior...wouldn't me ignoring this situation by taking the stance that he should be left be(andI have no intentions of bothering him)because he is enjoying himself so much be the wrong approach? Just because I am not giving the behavior a chance to surface doesn't mean that it isn't an issue, no?

PS- Your advice about the training, it had crossed my mind. I don't regret my 6 weeks with them at all though, as it established a good alpha basis and taught me alot about pack theory. I am definitely considering it down the road for further obedience like CGC, and if I run into any serious behavior problems. Thanks for the advice though, makes sense :)

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by plato23

My nephew is almost 2, and it was only the second child Plato was exposed to...I suspect if I wandered by him while he chewed on it he may have not even cared.

Dogs don't generalize well. Since your nephew is only the second child your dog has seen, I'm not surprised he growled.

Is there a reason Plato hasn't been around many children? It would be highly beneficial for you to get Plato to a school yard or some such place where there're lots of kids and have the kids interact with him nicely and feed him treats. Your boy needs to have good interaction with people of all sizes, both sexes, of various ages and ethnic backgrounds.

Originally Posted by plato23

Like I said, I know lots of you aren't fans of rolling a dog, but I am sure there are some who swear by it. If the situation arises and he is 8 months old, hormones raging, and decides "hey if I growl and become defensive when someone wanders near me while I am eating, or I put up a fuss about coming into the house from the yard", BOTH are which of in the realm of possibility, is letting this go and trying to correct it homeopathically going to send the wrong message, that I am a pushover?.

And, I'm sure there's no one here who swears by rolling a dog.

As I said, rolling dogs reflects an old, discredited approach. Do you really think you're going to be able to roll Plato when he's 17 mo old and weighs almost 90 lbs, as does our current foster??

Far better to give him a leash or collar correction.

Originally Posted by plato23

Also, if when Plato chews on a marrowbone, if trying to take it from him just for a second to see if he displays this type of behavior elicits a growl/defensive behavior...wouldn't me ignoring this situation by taking the stance that he should be left be(andI have no intentions of bothering him)because he is enjoying himself so much be the wrong approach? Just because I am not giving the behavior a chance to surface doesn't mean that it isn't an issue, no?

If your fist post you said,

Originally Posted by plato23

...with compressed rawhide and his food...i can literally stick my face in his bowl or take his toy from him with my mouth and he just looks at me, sometimes licks me.

Is he fine with you taking things away from him or not?

If he's fine, why belabor the point? If he's not fine, work on making him fine.

[spidey]

People who "swear by" rolling a dog are simply people who haven't bothered to do the VERY small amount of research it takes to find out that this "training" method is based on very old and VERY faulty interpretations of wolf behaviour. The so-called "alpha roll" DOES NOT EXIST in nature, alpha wolves don't roll subordinate wolves, the subordinate wolf ROLLS ITSELF. So, given that the basis of rolling dogs has been shown over and over again to be completely false, why would anyone swear by it? The only time a wild dog would ever do this sort of maneuver to another dog is if it intended to kill it, and most dogs, when placed in fear of their life, are going to fight back. Rolling dogs is extremely dangerous (a dog who'd never dream of biting under any other circumstance may well bite when it fears for its life) and doesn't accomplish anything useful. Think for a second about what this is teaching your dog: the strongest one wins (do you REALLY want a full-grown Rottweiler thinking that all it has to do to be in charge is take you down?), you are dangerous and unpredictable (good luck building a solid, respectful relationship with a dog who has learned that you're crazy), and occasionally you just attack it, would YOU like living with someone like this? Training, consistency, an understanding of dog psychology and behaviour and proper dog management are what you need, not nonsense like rolling.

Dogs lead by behaving like leaders, not by rolling each other. Do a search here for resource guarding, there is a lot of information about it, and PLEASE do not EVER allow a child to approach a dog alone, especially if the dog has a high-value item. Proper supervision of dogs and children involves an adult being less than a couple of feet away.

[plato23]

He has been around other children, just not direct contact with them. I've had him in playgrounds/parks, etc., so he has SEEN them, he has just not interacted much. Past the incidence with my nephew he has had alot more socialization with them.

About me taking things from him, he is fine. But with treats that are of very high value to him, such as a marrowbone, which I have not given him to this point, I do not know if he will willingly give it up. The beef ear incident is something that is a bit of a grey area because he did not start the defensive behavior because of ME, it just escalated from my nephew to me for whatever reason. I also pretty much have no doubt that I would be able to roll him when hes 90lbs, whether or not this is in the best interest of my health is a completely different story and if it is not the right thing to do, then it is certainly not something I want to engage in for a variety of obvious reasons.

I understand what both of you(Angel, spidey) are saying, but the issue is that given a situation arises where uneducated people(apparently myself for the time being) would think to roll a dog, such as an aggressive response from a dog over guarding, and when the time comes if I am tested by Plato for ANY reason as he is maturing sexually and hitting that stage...how do/have you handled this?

PS- He had a big problem with biting pants/shorts and pulling them aggressively like a chew toy around 13-14 weeks. After 2 stern "no's" I went to a collar correction. It stopped quickly. Occasionally when he is exceptionally brazen I give collar corrections as well. I am not a total imbecile, I am just trying to anticipate the episodes common in males when he hits 8-12 months and how to handle them properly. I appreciate all the feedback and I apologize for being so long winded, hehe :)

[spidey]

If you do regular training (daily sessions and at least weekly classes), and you maintain a proper and fair set of rules in your house about managing the dog, then you will know how to handle any "testing" episodes. Establishing an appropriate and respectful relationship comes from training and proper management. The more you learn about dog behaviour and psychology, the more training you do, the more tricks you will have up your sleeve for when you need them. I have never had a resource guarding issue with any of my dogs, because they have never had any reason to think that they NEED to guard things from me. I do trading exercises early on (giving the dog something even better than what they have in exchange for what they have, then giving the original thing back), and I establish a good relationship early on. Your dog clearly should not be given high-value items at this point, they are not necessary and you are asking for trouble giving them to a dog who's showing signs of resource guarding. Work on trading with low-value things, work on obedience, work on your in-home management and please do not let kids be around any dog without you being right there.

[AngelBunny]

How do I handle the dog hitting sexual maturity? By praticing NILIF from the instant the dog sets foot into our house. And practicing it thruout the dog's life. Like spidey, I've never had a resource issue with any of our personal dogs, nor has it been an issue with the dogs we foster (mainly males) for my rescue group (dogs are tested with food and high value items). Foster dogs may be a bit reluctant to trade high value items like forzen raw beef marrow bones, but I have methods of ensuring the dog will be more willing to trade than not before he gets his first treat.

Please, put any idea of rolling your dog out of your head. It's likely you could roll Plato, but why would you want to do something so wrong and inappropriate to your dog?

[plato23]

I understand, I have been following the alpha rules to a T. He sits/stays through doorways, before greeting people, eats after he sees me eat...so on and so on. I appreciate all the help immensely, just trying to make sure I handle things the right way.

[kayozzy]

I went through the same problem, so I will tell you what worked for me. But first I want to mention that I truly believe that when a dog is only allowed a goody for a few minutes or an item is taken away when they are growling, it reinforces the possessiveness. I have heard another trainer give that advice and I think it is ludicrous! It just seems like common sense to me not to reinforce the behavior by making their fear come true.

Anway... Xander did this for the first time with a turkey bone. My approach is to condition them that their treat isn't going to be taken away, so there is no need to be greedy. What I did was just sit by him at first until he relaxed and started chewing again. Then I left for a minute. Came back repeated until he was relaxed with me being around.

Then I advanced to scratching his back and repeated until he knew I wasn't trying to take it. Gradually I moved to his head until he was comfortable with that. It is also important to have a pretty solid drop it. And what I mean by that is they should know when they drop something, it doesn't mean the fun with the ball is over, or the yummy garbage is taken away without being replaced by something better. A good drop it is done with joy at the prospect of more fun or a better treat.

Of course for a highly valued item, drop it isn't going to work especially for a young dog. For this case, I used it like I would a ball. So I gave him the drop it command, (he surprisingly loosened his grip a little), and I quickly grabbed it and dropped it a foot away. I always used an excited tone to ensure he felt we were just playing. Told him Good Boy in my excited tone when he went and got it. I continued this method until he learned that no matter how delicious his treat was, he could keep it.

I don't know if this method would work if you have another dog that may steal the item. But my other dog wouldn't take something, especially when he had his own, so it worked great for me.

If you have to take something he shouldn't have, be sure to replace it with something very desirable. Otherwise it might undo what he has learned with the above method.

[lilabet]

I agree with Kayozzy. You need to let the dog know that there is no reason to guard the object, no matter what it is. In our puppy classes where I work we teach our owners to prevent posession aggression. Start with a toy or the dog's food dish and show them a higher value tid bit. When they drop the toy or raise their head from the food bowl, praise, give the treat and then let them have the toy back or finish their meal. If you continue to do this with different objects throughout their puppyhood and adolescence, they will not feel that they need to guard from you. Also you can, while the pup is eating, pick up the food dish, drop a yummy treat in there and return the bowl to him. This teaches them that good things happen when they give up items and there is no reason to guard. If you have a stranger (to the dog) in the house, I would give the dog a bone or chew toy in their crate to make them feel more secure. Direct socialisation with all kinds of people (not just seeing them from a distance) is also a very good thing, to be continued right through adulthood. In my opinion, disciplining them or forcefully taking an item away will only make them feel the need to guard more.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by plato23

I understand, I have been following the alpha rules to a T. He sits/stays through doorways, before greeting people, eats after he sees me eat...so on and so on. I appreciate all the help immensely, just trying to make sure I handle things the right way.

"Alpha rules" are not the same thing as NILIF. NILIF will help, "alpha rules" likely won't.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by spidey

"Alpha rules" are not the same thing as NILIF. NILIF will help, "alpha rules" likely won't.

I agree with spidey....forget all of the "alpha rules" crap.
This is the old style training and ideology going, that your trainer is filling your head with. Please look for a trainer that is into positive methods...that does not believe in flipping dogs.

NILIF is a much better way of showing leadership. It's a constant thing you do in everyday life with your dogs. If you are consistent and show leadership, and are honest with your dog, you will not have any problems. I've had dogs for over 30 years....never flipped one, never had food aggression problems, never had resource guarding problems....I asked for alot from my dogs (good behaviour, manners,etc.) and I always got it from them. It's because I expected it from them....and they understood.

Gina

[spidey]

I agree with Gina, at very least find a trainer who's up to date on research done in the last 20 years or so. "Alpha rules" don't make sense to a dog, especially since you are not a dog, NILIF does.

[plato23]

I didn't mean "the alpha RULES", like I am the alpha and I rule, I basically mean't NILIF. It is the same thing practically. If anyone has read the book "Leader of the pack", pretty much everything covered in NILIF and way more is in that book.

That is usually what I did with his bones and stuff kayozzy and lilabet, pretty much exactly what you said. I guess I can do the same if he has a problem with a marrowbone.