shock collar

[mmnjean]

I am at my last resort here with my 3 year old male rottie. His food aggression behavior has gotten out of control. When he was a puppy I did everything my trainer told me to do...I put my hand in his bowl while he ate to get him used to the idea, I added special treats to his bowl while he ate which he didn't mind when he was a pup. But now its gotten out of control. Here is the way it goes...I put his food and water down in the kitchen where he eats....he will growl at me until I LEAVE the area. Today was different...I put his food out upstairs came downstairs and told him to go eat....he immediately started to growl at me even though neither of us were near his food. He wouldn't even go up to eat..he just growled at me. In a stern voice I told him NO! which he responded with more growling, again NO!...it didn't work, eventually I put him in a room in a sit/stay and put his food away. When he growls he does not show his teeth or stands. He gets down low and does not look at me. Other than his food aggression he is perfect. He listens to all the commands I give him. I can have him in a sit/stay off a leash outside and he will stare at the stray cats and not MOVE one inch all the while looking at me, anxiously waiting for me to tell him to "get the cat" which of course I never do. So I looked online and purchased a e-collar for behavior. I am not 100% comfortable with this idea. Something needs to be done and I only want to use this as a last resort. I've spent hours and hours on training with him since he was a pup and have a very close bond with him. This his only negative behavior. Any alternative suggestions??

[LadyEvil2172]

Can you have a behaviorist come to help evaluate him? I've heard of making the dog eat only out of your hand instead of the bowl for this type of food aggression too. Personally, I wouldn't use the collar unless your 100% sure how to. IMO

[AngelBunny]

The only place I'd feed this dog is in his crate.

Put him in a Sit Stay or Down Stay, go to his crate and put his bowl in the far corner. Release the dog. Close the door after he goes into his crate and leave him be.

I don't think an e-collar is going to do anything to stop his behavior, if as you say, you've "did everything [your] trainer told [you] to do and "Other than his food aggression he is perfect. He listens to all the commands I give him." I am usually a proponent of retraining for less than desirable behavior, but perhaps in your dog's case, managing the issue is the best that can be done.

Do you practice NILIF?

I am interested in reading advice/suggestions you'll get from other members.

[sage138]

Try the crate first, and if it doesn't work try the e-collar they do work we use them in my schutzhund club. I use it on my pitbull because she likes to chase my cats and all I had to do is zap her once and now she knows when she wears the collar to behave.

[JeanT]

Before saying anything about the ecollar, I feel strongly about something else. I could be entirely wrong about this but...

Since you have a very strong bond with your dog and he is very well trained and obedient in all respects except this food thing, I'm wondering why you are making such an issue of it. I'm wondering if you have created the problem, and you are risking that otherwise excellent relationship you have by pitting yourself against your dog and insisting that you will "win" this one. The last episode of growling that you described - it does not sound like food aggression at all to me (the food was not even around and he was guarding nothing) but rather an intense state relating to the entire process of feeding. I agree with putting his food in the crate (if you use a crate) or in some out of the way place and simply leaving the food and your dog alone, totally alone. I do not see why you need to force the issue.

As to the ecollar. Have you thought out exactly how you would use it in this situation and what it is you think you will teach him? I can only think of one way you could use it, and that is to punish him with a zap for... for what, growling? You want the ecollar to make him stop growling? Or you think that zapping him is going to make him eat, and let you pet him and bother him while he eats or he gets zapped? Makes no sense to me at all. He is stressed enough. You zap in the last situation you described and either he will shut down from fear - getting a punishment for some reason he does not understand, or he will respond with aggression, trying to protect himself from an unwarranted attack.

Unless you have some explanation that I am not able to think of as to how and why you would use the ecollar on him for the behavior you describe, I think it would be a terrible mistake to use it. I hope you kept the receipt and will return it.

[gore]

I would never use that collar, i want the dog to listen to me not the collar. With my last dog this only happen once. When he growled at me, i didnt had time to think, in half a second my hand magicaly flew in to the air and slaped him HARD on his had. He was 5 years old and i never hit him before that, he forgot about food and was very ashamed. He never growled at me after that incident. H/w i dont advise you to do the same, i dont know your dog, and with my dog it was for the first time, he didnt got the time to make it a habit.

Im no expert, im sure some ppl in here can help you better, but if you say he listen to you quite well you can try this: put the food down where he eats and when he comes tell him to sit and wait. Dont let him touch the food for like 60 seconds than allow him to eat. Gradually make him wait for like 5 mins before he can eat, and do this every time you feed him. If he learns that the food is yours untill you tell him 'eat', i dont think he will try to compete with you anymore. gl

[spidey]

JeanT said exactly what I was trying to work out how to say. We often CAUSE the very problem we're trying to prevent when it comes to food aggression, and it may be that this is what's happened here. Either way, I don't see how the ecollar is going to fix this problem. Punishing a dog for growling is a bad idea if you're not also addressing the cause of the growling, since you're taking away one of the most clear communication methods a dog has (you're basically telling the dog not to bother warning you before he bites you), and it's often the case that hurting or otherwise stimulating (zapping with an ecollar, or giving a hard leash correction) a dog who is already aroused can INCREASE aggression, which is the opposite of what you want.

[Anne]

Excellent advice by Jean T. I too wonder how you could possible solve this problem with an e collar. I would feed the dog in the crate as suggested.

I really feel a lot of food guarding is caused by people who mess with the food e.g. putting hands in bowls etc., I have never bothered my dogs by messing with their food when they eat and I have never had a food guarding problem with any of them. They eat side by side and don't try to steal food from eachothers bowls or display any other feeding problems.

I trust you can return the e collar for a refund.

[rencook]

Without proper guidance, using an e-collar on a dog with agression issues can have disaterous results-please find a trainer in your area to help you with the collar. You cannot just put the collar on and start tapping the button-the e-collar is a wonderful training tool-but must be used properly.

[jakesfostermom]

I agree with feeding him in his crate - no variations. He sounds like a well behaved rottie who respects your direction and this may be the one area where you find it is best to remove him completely from the area, put his food in his crate, bring him into the room where his crate is and have him "crate up". Latch the door and leave him in peace until he is done. We have a 5 year old male rescue who came to us with much the same issues with food. We did this for about 18 months, and now can feed him in the open, after a sit, give paw, "wait" and release to eat. He's predictable, but so are we - he knows what to expect and he gets to eat in peace - no human or dog traffic around him, no distractions - just eat and then we get back to what we were doing. Good luck! He sounds like a good dog otherwise and I'm one of those people who believe that feeding time is private time.

[Burnsway]

I'm with JeanT and others on this. I think you have made what might have been a Minor small food aggressive problem into a huge game play(In the dogs mind).

Put him in a crate or confined to a room, feed him and leave. When he is done pick it up and go about life.

I'm 100% against using the e collar for this. If you correct(For the growling I assume) at just a second off timing you are going to turn this into a much worse problem.

[gore]

Sory but i dont agree, a dog shouldnt act aggressively towards his owner no matter the circumstances. I feel is just a way of avoiding the problem if you just close him in to a room when he eats. He needs to understand there will be no competing over food with you.

The reason i think this can be a problem is that where i live there are many homeless dogs, and many times there is poisoned food left there by ppl who dont like those dogs. I dont want to get to the point where i need to fight with my dog to save him...so is very important for me that my dog eats at command only.

[mmnjean]

Thank you all so much. I do leave him alone when he eats, but then I cannot even enter the kitchen until he is done. I don't want to confine him to a crate or a blocked off room because I want him to feel comfortable with people walking near him while he eats. I do not want to take his food or pet him while he is eating, I wouldn't like it while I am eating. I just want to be able to enter the same room as he when he is eating. I have tried today to feed him by hand which he was fine with. Then after a few handfuls I was putting food on the floor and made him stay until I gave him the command, which he did with no growling. I even held the bowl while he ate which he had no problem with. It wasnt until I put the food bowl down, made him wait, and let him approach his bowl did he start to growl at me. I then picked up the bowl, put it on the counter and walked away. I did this for both his feedings today. I will continue to train this way before I use the shock collar. If I cannot do it myself, I will call my trainer back to see if he has any suggestions before I use the collar. I have read to about zapping him when he growls that he will associate that with pain and bite w/out warning. I do not want that either. I also have 2 cats, maybe he feels they will take his food? They follow me around the house and are in the kitchen when I put the food down but leave when I do. It could be that. I will take all of your advice and work on this, w/out the collar. Thank you again.

[AngelBunny]

It baffles me that he's been fine with you futzing with his food, but now he sounds as tho he'd take your hand off if you put it near his bowl. My girls are ferocious to the point of savergy with other dogs around their food bowls, but as our 2 girls and foster boy all eat in separate rooms of the house, it's not a problem. Our dogs have never had a problem with any human around their food (fact is, they think if a human comes over to their bowl, a treat is coming their way). But, as they're 5 yo & 6 yo, I don't futz or bother them or do anything to them while they're eating. I put down their food, pat them on their ear once or twice or the top of their heads, and walk away.

I don't share your reluctance about feeding him in his crate "because [you] want him to feel comfortable with people walking near him while he eats." It's obvious he doesn't feel comfortable and if you do the same old thing, you'll get the same old thing. How many people are there in your home, coming and going when he eats that this is such a concern?? Crate him and leave him alone.

The reason he was fine with you feeding him from your hand (ie, no growling) but growled when you put the bowl on the floor was because the food in your hand was yours, the food in his bowl on the floor was his. By growling he was warning you away from "his" stuff.

If this is the only fault your dog has, I'd let him be. Feed him in his crate. Let him eat in peace.

[JeanT]

It wasnt until I put the food bowl down, made him wait, and let him approach his bowl did he start to growl at me. I then picked up the bowl, put it on the counter and walked away.

I'd stop doing that right away, taking the bowl away when he growls! I don't see how he would understand that you are taking it away because of the growl, but I could see him deciding that he'd better give you a chomp so he can keep the food! You are a food thief! It's a good thing he likes you so much or you wouldn't have gotten away with stealing his food.

I'd start over. I'd have him sit while the food is prepared and placed on the floor. I'd move to a different area of the kitchen, even if it's a small kitchen and you can only move a few feet away. Then release him so he can go to the food, but you stay away and simply ignore him while he eats. It would be even better if you could change the feeding location (place to place the bowl) to a quiet place where you don't have to go past him. For some reason he has developed a distrust of you and thinks he is not going to be able to eat once you place the bowl down. You could probably figure out how that distrust developed if you reviewed all you've been doing (probably just too darn much fussing and testing to be sure you can take the food!), but it really doesn't matter why it developed. Start afresh with a new feeding pattern and IGNORE him. And keep your eyes off him and the food bowl! Staring is rude! (and challenging) Eventually he will stop worrying about you, meaning he will not bother to growl anymore.

I don't know how many strangers you have wandering around during feeding time that you have to worry about them walking past him, but if you really do have them around, then tell them to bug out of the room or feed him at a different time. If you are just anticipating strangers being around someday, well, I think that just indicates that you've made this an unnecessary issue between the two of you. If there are children around, get rid of them while he eats.

Really, he just doesn't trust you right now, for this. Punishing him for a reason he does not understand is just going to make him distrust you more, you food thief. This is one problem that if you ignore it, it will go away! It will take a little while probably, because he is going to have to forget that he (thinks) he has to growl to be able to eat.