Doing something "wrong" correction and time lapse

[Stubby]

Didn't really know how to word the title for this one... LOL

My understanding of how a dog "works" in relation to unwanted behaviour and correction is as follows:

You see an unwanted behaviour, you correct. Timing is crucial, right? That is, if you correct the dog for something they did wrong 2 minutes after the act, the dog does not "get" that he is being corrected for whatever unwanted behaviour he displayed, right?

So, why is it that if a dog does something, like, gets into the garbage, and you are not there to catch it. When you do come home, the dog is hiding. Is he associating what he has done with knowing you will be upset with him?

I hear this from people all the time, "how can you say they don't associate what they did with correction?? He hides in the closet if I come home and he's been in the garbage!"

Thoughts??

[Patty1231]

I honestly don't buy into that realm of thought. Dogs know what they did wrong, and remember it, the same as they know what they did right, and remember it. How else would be able to train our dogs to titles?

[Angus Boy]

I agree that they do remember. If I come home and there's a ripped open, empty bread bag on the floor and I just walk over and pick it up, Angus gets the most guilty look on his face and leaves to go lie down in the porch, where he is put in a down stay when he does something wrong. I don't have to say anything or even look at him. He knows.
If they don't remember things, then how could we teach them tricks and whatnot and have them remember them? Dogs are alot smarter than people give them credit for.

[jas'smom]

Yes...but isn't learning a conditioned responce?? you do or say something and the dog reponds to his conditioning.....sitz, platz etc....in the situation with the trash...you arrive home, trash is on the floor, you pick it up and give your dog a look...he is conditioned to act guilty from past experiences with the trash.....If your dog had never been in the trash before or any other kind of trouble....my guess is that he would greet you happily at the door....I guess in my bumbling way I am trying to say that you have conditioned your dog to react in the manner of a guilty dog. He feels no remorse or guilt...Its a conditioned responce to your actions rather than a memory of guilt.....does any of this make sense???? sigh...it would be so much easier to just talke rather than write

[aseemom]

I don't think it is about remembering. I do believe they know when they have been naughty. I just don't think they can link the bad behavior to the disipline when time has passed.

[MonteRiehl]

It's a conditioned response.

I firmly believe the quantative research about this being a conditioned reponse. I believe in scientific method vs personal experience. It's a pretty well documented behaviour quirk that has tweaked animal behaviourists. It's been well researched and documented.
Their collected evidence points 100% towards a conditioned response to the owner, not guilt for the act of "trashing".
Use Google to find the research yourself.
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir.../behavior.html
or http://www.slate.com/id/2127419/
or http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/behavior/

Another great book about "anthropomorphizing animal behaviour" is Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.

My understanding of this example you've posted.
From the Human point of view.
I came home, and I see garbage has been strewn all over kitchen/house, and I blow my stack at the dog. I'm really angry and my tone of voice, attitude, and body language reflect it. I was going to give the dog a good correction, but it's acting really sorry for what it did, so I'll just glare at it while I clean up.

From the dog's point of view.
My owner got home angry and started yelling at me for no reason. I don't know what their problem was so I'll act submissive and cower a little. That usually works when my owner is yelling and angry. I don't know why they were angry at me, but I'll act extra sorry and repentant next time when they come home and act angry, it seemed to work.

With your example, what you are teaching with a late correction/outburst is: submissive behaviour when your ticked off.
The dog does not really understand why you got mad when you came home. It's long since moved on past the garbage by the time you get home. The dog just reads the body language, and tone, and responds to that.

In this example, a better response to this would be to put the collar on yourself and give yourself a good correction for not "dog proofing" the garbage before you left.

You can "garbage proof" your dog, but this isn't the way to do it.

[excellrott]

Very true about the conditioned response....And BTW, I love 'culture clash'.....BUT a couple of times I have come home with 'happy' voices only to discover my girls are already hiding.
When there is no mess or chewed up no no, they greet me at the door. So do they know before they even see me that I will be pissed or do they know I won't like the mess THEY made while I was gone?

[mjfish]

I kind of look at it like this -- if I've been "lucky" enough to catch him in the act to correct him, then I expect that he may have learned (been conditioned) to the wrongdoing, and therefore should know (to a certain extent) that he did something wrong.

However, if he's never been caught in order to teach him that it's wrong, well I don't think it's fair to expect them to understand. What they are reacting to is your tone of voice and body language instead. Just like if someone were to yell at you in a foreign language...you wouldn't understand the words, but you would know something is wrong by tone and body language.

For example, we were doing holiday baking, and I had repeatedly told the Rottn monster to "go in the other room" and pointed. I'm sure he understood that 'cause he did as told. However later when I yelled at him for being in the baking room again and told him "You're going to get your butt in a sling" ...well, I don't think he really understood that, but you can bet he got the gist of my message by tone and body language!

If it's hours later...well, I think they don't know/remember, but my DH says they do. We have agreed to disagree on this in order to avoid lengthy "conversations".

[Angus Boy]

I do believe that it is a conditioned response, which is why they know they've done wrong. A new pup will not know what is right and what is wrong because they haven't been trained to know the difference.

When they do good, they are given treats and are praised.
When they do wrong, they are punished.

They know if you tell them to sit, and they sit, that they've done good because you've trained them to know that it's a good thing by your response to their action.
It's the same with wrong doings. They dig through the trash and get punished. So they know it's wrong because of the way you respond to that type of action.

I agree it would be much easier talking in person.

[MonteRiehl]

Memory and conditioned responses are not the same thing. Memory is a component of conditioning, but only a piece of it.

Your dogs are all smart, I am quite sure, but they are dogs, and not people. Stop anthropomorphizing them.

I am not going to waste time trying to explain this. It's clearly documented, and much clearer than my feeble attempts. You have to have a glimmer of wanting to learn. So if you are really interested, please research and learn for yourself.

If you have already made up your mind, then there are some nice dark rocks to crawl under around here somewhere. I think most of the best "rock places" are in chit chat

Enlightenment is found here.
http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/
Further enlightenment
http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-sci.htm#lrn

More Resources about
Animal Cognition, Learning, and Behavior
http://www.pigeon.psy.tufts.edu/psych26/p26alinks.htm

Defn Anthropomorphism, a form of personification (applying human or animal qualities to inanimate objects) and similar to prosopopoeia (adopting the persona of another person), is the attribution of human characteristics and qualities to non-human beings, objects, or natural phenomena. Animals, forces of nature, and unseen or unknown authors of chance are frequent subjects of anthropomorphosis. "Anthropomorphism" comes from two Greek words, ανθρωπος (anthrōpos), meaning "human", and μορφη (morphē), meaning "shape" or "form".

The word "anthropomorphism" is a modern coinage, possibly from 18th century French.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Originally Posted by jas'smom

Yes...but isn't learning a conditioned responce?? you do or say something and the dog reponds to his conditioning.....sitz, platz etc....in the situation with the trash...you arrive home, trash is on the floor, you pick it up and give your dog a look...he is conditioned to act guilty from past experiences with the trash.....If your dog had never been in the trash before or any other kind of trouble....my guess is that he would greet you happily at the door....I guess in my bumbling way I am trying to say that you have conditioned your dog to react in the manner of a guilty dog. He feels no remorse or guilt...Its a conditioned responce to your actions rather than a memory of guilt.....does any of this make sense???? sigh...it would be so much easier to just talke rather than write

I agree Pam..it IS a conditioned response.

Corrections are ONLY effective within SECONDS of the behaviour..the same with praise.

[HerculesMomma]

Originally Posted by Ilovemypuppy

I agree Pam..it IS a conditioned response.

Corrections are ONLY effective within SECONDS of the behaviour..the same with praise.

I agree. However, I do believe that you can correct after the fact in some circumstances. When my dog marked in my house I corrected him many hours later. I just made sure he smelled the evidence before he got the poop scolded out of him. Of course, he is not a pup in poddy training, he is an adult male who knows better.

But again, this too could go back to conditioning I suppose. You've conditioned your dog to be poddy trained, hence they should know better.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Originally Posted by HerculesMomma

When my dog marked in my house I corrected him many hours later. I just made sure he smelled the evidence before he got the poop scolded out of him.

But again, this too could go back to conditioning I suppose. You've conditioned your dog to be poddy trained, hence they should know better.

I don't believe a dog makes any association in a case like this except that , when in the presence of THAT smell, it's owner can be unpredictable. It's ALMOST like rubbing a puppy's nose in it's waste and the puppy, then making sure it doesn't pee or defecate in the presence of the owner again...way too dangerous.

It IS grossly unfair, in my opinion, to scold or correct a dog for a behavior that the dog does not understand.

Although you say your dog understood he was not to go in the house, and he was an adult when he did it...did you actually catch him in the act ? You said it was hours later..I can only believe it was a coincidence that he didn't do it again.

[dmoniz]

Just a yesterday I was told a story about a woman's dog who was put away in a crate for the evening. The next morning the dog bee-lined for a bone it had been chewing on the evening before, it's not like this bone was on the way to the door or anything either. So they definetely can retain information about what was done hours before. I agree though that the acting guilty thing is a conditioned response...

[Bruce Lanthier]

While I have never scolded a dog for a mess it made I have been quite angry at the mess. I grumble and growl and show extreme displeasure with the mess. I do not necessarily direct this at the dogs, shoot it is rare when I know which dog made the mess so I wouldn't know who to scold anyway. But, as I am scolding the mess itself, the dogs act like they act when one is getting in trouble and the others aren't. They stand around about 5-6 feet away and stay out of the way as I am grumbling about the mess. I believe that this way I can show them I am unhappy with the chewed/shredded item and they can associate that mess with my displeasure. The only time they really get into something is when I am not able to give them the exercise they need. Extra energy makes for bored/bad dogs LOL. But, like I said earlier, in a multi dog household I don't even know which one to scold so scolding a dog, any dog, wouldn't make sense. And, even if they don't associate my displeasure with the mess up item (although I think they do) my grumbling and growling at the item relieves my "pressure" so that I am not too angry with myself for causing the problem to begin with by not exercising them, their minds/bodies, enough.
If it is bodily fluids I never even growl or grumble, I just clean it up. They only have a body fluid accident when they are sick and that is no one's fault so I don't even get upset. Just clean it up and try and be alert/ahead of the next one.