Aggression with "High Value Items"

[mannurse801]

Hey everyone. We have a 41/2 month old 3/4 Rotti, 1/4 Dobbie mix. She is generally a sweatheart. Very affectionate, like all new people, and does amazing in her obedience. We have one MAJOR issue. When she gets ahold of something she should not have... sock, wrappers, underwear, rocks, small stick.... you get the picture. Something clicks in her brain and she gets crazy aggressive, and will not give up the item. I know that teaching leave it and not giving her the opportunity to get these things is the key, but it not always possible. Anyway, when I try to get the item from her, she snaps, growls. And when I do get a hold of her muzzle and try to pry her jaws apart, I cannot even move her mouth. I push her joules into her teeth, but it just enrages her more. Most item will be release with a food item, but not everything. She bit me hard the other day while trying this. We are working hard on leave it. She is not possessive over he toys or her bones or anything other that stupid objects. How do I curb this behaviour? I need help. Thanks alot, Ian

[Ilovemypuppy]

You've got the basics down right except that I feel what may have happened over time, is that you have run to her when she has gotten soemthing in her mouth and grabbed it or her and she has learned to clamp down and dig in for a fight...not good...as you know.

I think you are going to have to start over with her in the release department by starting 'as a game'...take it...hold....give or "out" with something that is not high value and gradually work you're way up to high value items.

The confrontational ways of trying to deal with this....well..you know what the result of that is first hand.


Make the 'release' game REALLY fun and carry treats in your pockets so you are always armed with something she will be willing to trade for.

Until this is remedied, be very careful with her around other people who may make the mistake of grabbing something from her.

Movements should be slow, deliberate, but patient in retraining her and any little success should be praised and rewarded enthusiastically on your part.

This isn't going to be fixed overnight, but if you are patient and consistant, she will learn to 'give' you what she has. Little steps at a time and for now. please try to keep all high value items out of her reach......that will help as you re-shape her behaviour.

[dragonlover]

Hi I am not an expert, but until you get better advice try trading items. Give her a treat or a toy she likes and it may make her release the item she took posession of.

[rhylmarova]

We had the same problem and teoretically, still have. Our 6months old Rotti still loves to take hold of sock or anything that he shouldn't. The difference now is, that instead of chasing him and forcefully trying to take it out (was ok for first few weeks but now I stand no chance to open his mouth and would be making it all confrontational), I just call him a silly boy and offer a TRADE. The minute I have treat, the sock goes flying and he only has eyes for me....or the treat?

Takes a bit of self-control as on occassions, I want to yell and cry and anything else when I see him chewing on my expensive special occassion bra..

[TrishB]

#1 would be to clean up everything so that she can't steal anything.
#2 would be to teach "Give" or "Out"
#3 would be to restrict her movement, always have her under supervision.

She's only 4 1/2 months. She shouldn't have full range of the house so that she can get into things. She's MUCH too young to be unsupervised. Put up baby gates to keep her in rooms where you can see her / supervise her. If you're busy - crate her. If she was able to get your special items, it's because she was out of your line of sight to get it.

Have 2 toys that are the same, give her one, tell her to "Give" or "Out" for the other one - or trade up for a VERY yummy treat. These should be high value treats like hotdogs or cheese string - things that you ONLY USE FOR THIS PURPOSE. If they stay special, she'll continue to work for them. This should be the only game she gets these particular treats.

Best of luck.

[debbiej]

you have gotten good advice. I can sure sympathise with you though. I adopted an older pup about 2 years ago. she has always been very bad about this. we used to joke that the only way to keep her from getting 'a hostage' was to clear the house of every single object above 3' and close all the doors to bedrooms and bathrooms all the time. didn't matter, she could still find something. and your description of something clicking in the brain is very accurate, except mine just gets a glazed, determined look in her eye, locks her jaw and shuts down.

I think the persons who had her before we did layed some unfortunate training foundations. She is obsessive about snatching stuff. on a particularly bad night she may find something every 5 minutes. magazines, paper scraps, kindling out of the woodstove, bills off the desk, and it is ALL for attention!! I find that when she is in this mood, I must stop what I am doing and walk her or play with her for a while, then it is her bedtime. She is a lot better now, still will grab things, but more often than not, will either obey the 'leave it' or the 'out' command. she gets lots of treats and praise everytime she obeys.
with the treat and trade, it seemed for a while that we were rewarding her for snatching stuff, but if you do some sits and outs, it feels more like training and working than giving into ransom and blackmail.

So, don't play the game, be calm, don't go after her, call her to you for a treat and trade. We are making headway in this, but it has been a long road.

[mwaters]

I have found success with my boy by trading for something yummy and then allowing him to have that 'high value item' BACK. I know it sounds crazy but it has taught him that just because he gives something to me does not mean that he loses it. I don't do this every time but if it is something that is already ruined or something that won't hurt him he can have it again for a minute or two then we trade again. It seems to take away some of that strong desire to never give it up...he is thinking that he may get it back anyhow so why not give it to me for a minute and get his yummy treat.

[mannurse801]

Thanks for the advice, pretty much what we are trying, and as you say, it can be very frustrating. Baby gates are up, and she is never alone, just very sly.... We are doing the leave it and give training. I think dominance is also coming into play. Little things, barking at commands, ignoring things, wanting up on the furniture, begging for food after eating, that type of stuff. I come from a dog family... my mom breeds Irish Wolfhounds, and have been around dogs all my life. This breed is by far the most challenging to date, but I am in it for the long haul, my wife is another story, she tends to get frustrated easily and ends up in a shouting match with the dog. I try to stop it, but hey... if you are a wife... have you ever listened to your husbands advice? Hey thanks alot, just wanted reassurance that I was at least heading in the right direction with her training, thanks guys.. Ian

[TrishB]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I'd recommend that you enter your dog into obedience classes and have your wife handle the dog (you can watch, most schools will allow an audience). Your wife needs to know how to handle the dog, to interact, to assert herself effectively.

Shouting matches with a 4 1/2 month old puppy does not bode well. The sooner they learn how to work together, the better.

[mannurse801]

Thanks, yeah she is in obedience, a place called Dunnmillan K9 College. He is a wonderful trainer, doing it for 30 years, and has a couple Canadian Championships under his belt. Unfortunately, I have been the one doing the training, bacause of my love for dogs. My wife does some practicing every day also, using stuff that we learned from 2-3 weeks ago. Thanks again...

One more thing. Would it be ok to boobie trap an item, like a sock, with hot sauce or bitter apple, let her take it, and suffer the consequence? Just wondering. Some people are for this, some are not. Thanks

[TrishB]

I was trying to find the substance that Dr. Stanley Coren recommends. It has a very bitter taste, but is odourless. Being odourless is important, or she'll just learn that anything that smells like THAT isn't worth it.

Booby trapping things is tough. Simply, if she finds ONE THING that doesn't taste bad, the whole thing is blown out of the water. That way all she does is learn to keep trying until she finds something that tastes good. So until you can keep EVERYTHING off of the floor, I wouldn't recommend it. All you'd be doing is training her to be more diligent.

Please also chat to your wife about handling the dog in the classes. SHE needs to be lead by the trainer, know how to handle the dog, to see what she's doing right and wrong. I know you want to - but especially at this very important time, while she's young and developing patterns, it's important that she and your wife bond. Second hand won't do it in this case - they need the help more than you do. Your wife needs to work the dog under the watchful eye of your trainer.

I know that you probably enjoy doing the training - but right now, while your dog is a pup - your wife NEEDS to do the training.

[ZB Realzibozinovin]

I for one really don't get this behavior between owner and dog. I know how it starts though and soooooo many people seem to make the same mistake. I've had several dogs that have come to me for this type of behavior and it really is sad. One thing I believe in is that no dog (if cared and trained properly) should bite the owner even when taking something out of the dog's mouth. I have several dogs and they have come to me with numerous problems. The number one problem being food or object aggressive. I shake my head when I read these posts. An owner should at ANY time be able to take an object out of their dogs mouth. Most people might argue the fact but this is what I deal with from owners who have dumped their dogs on my doorstep. Some of the owners have come back to me after I have broken the dogs of these aggressive behaviors and they want their dogs back cause they see that the behavior could have been controlled. But, I never give the dogs back to them. They dumped them, so they gave up their rights.
Since I have dealt with a lot of dogs, I really don't see a difference in one breed from another, especially if each breed is having the same problem as being food or object aggressive. The only difference I see in each dog is that each one has their own personality. Some I have to be a bit stricter than with another dog. But it all comes out the same way in the end that the owners missed some steps in the training process and then got frustrated and did not want to deal with the problem any more.
Anyway, I won't comment on this post cause I might not be too nice in what I have to say. So good luck and don't give up on training the little one. Be firm, but get your point across.

[Ilovemypuppy]

I think alot of times the possession aggression begins in puppyhood with owners that are too impatient to teach and just grab objects out of the pup's mouth and it just escalates from there.

Instead of grabbing......they should have encouraged the puppy to 'show' them the object and , trade for a treat or whatever, admire the obejct and return it (if it is s safe object to return) and it would be if EVERYTHING WAS PICKED UP!

[macho rottie]

I was trying to find the substance that Dr. Stanley Coren recommends. It has a very bitter taste, but is odourless. Being odourless is important, or she'll just learn that anything that smells like THAT isn't worth it.

It's called "ALUM" and is used for pickling cucumbers.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by macho rottie

It's called "ALUM" and is used for pickling cucumbers.

That's it! It's not a word you encounter everyday. For some reason, I have some sort of block that prevents me from remembering it.