Setting the dog up to fail - Biting Puppy

[Vicki]

There have been a few posts lately where both owner and dog suffered from a dog bite. I would beg anyone with this problem to read The Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson.

Certainly in puppies the dominance theory is weak. A thirteen-week-old puppy has decided to challenge for pack leadership? When you give a dog a command he does not know, then get physical with a correction, it is abuse. The dog has no possible way to comply. For those who think dominance theory explains all, alpha dogs do NOT attack puppies, period. We've all seen a puppy bothering a dog, and what does the dog do? First, it will ignore the puppy, and in in the end, the dog gets up and moves away from the puppy. When the puppy is getting wild, or chewing the tissue, get up, turn your back, walk away. There actually is a correction that a puppy could get from its mother, but I won't describe it here as I can but imagine how it might be misused. Puppies who are still having their time on earth measured in weeks don't need physical corrections; they need training. A puppy would never be corrected by Mom for pooping when he felt the need, or putting whatever he found on the ground in his mouth, these are natural behaviors, and one must work dilligently to train different behaviors which make the dog able to live with humans. Would you jump on a toodler who was happily chewing a tissue? Probably not, as reason would dictate that the toodler could tell you were angry, but would not understand that his behavior was the cause. If you want to believe in dominance theory, then at least understand it. Alphas do NOT rule by force and terror.
Dogs understand body language, and respond to it. If you are boiling over with anger, I can promise you the dog is aware of it, and stressed by it. I know some people will tell you never quit "once you start something" but that is not sound advice. If you have lost your temper, or are in the process of losing it, STOP. Get away from the dog, calm down, work on your training plan. Consider how you managed to set the dog up, as in what did you do to help create this situation, and what can YOU learn about about how to prevent it from happening again. Get a notebook, write up your goals, keep track of your training sessions, this will help you track the dogs progress. Do your part to keep the dog from failing. Let's take the tissue, first of course, it should not have been where the puppy could get it. Get down on your hands and knees and get a puppy eye view of the world. If slip ups do occur, do not panic. Your puppy should see you as the fun person who does interesting things. If the dog has a nonlethal object in his little jaws, get up, turn your back, walk away. He'll follow you. When I work with very young dogs, I'll put a smear of cheese whiz on one palm, and a smear of liverwrust on the other. Put out the cheese palm first, then say "trade" then put out the liverwrust palm. Soon the puppy will learn there may be something even better in the next hand, so it pays to listen to this human. The puppy naturally explores the world with his mouth, so you have decide how you wish to channel that behavior. Keep different textures of toys and redirect chewing to those. I once had a GSD who had little razor teeth when he was tiny, and I got a pair of heavy leather welding gloves and when I put those on, but ONLY when I put those on, he could chew on the glove fingers.

Turid Rugaas's video on Calming Signals should be required viewing for puppy owners. Clicker training is a great way to have fun teaching your puppy human ways. Play Training Your Dog is another good training book. Find some way to give the puppy a chance.


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[MVARTANIANM]

Please read the book!!! Vicki knows what she is talking about, this will change your perspective of dogs and how they learn, interact, and how you can train them.

[German Vanegas]

Thank you Vicki, great article.

However, corrections are given in the animal kingdom by most species. In the wild, mother wolf will scold misbehaving cubs and teach them proper manners.

Puppies start testing how much they can get away with. The more they can do so, the more dominant they will become. Dominant signs do show at early stages of puppyhood. There is always this one puppy more outgoing, challenging, controlling, defiant, courageous, exploratory, and so forth, than the rest of the litter. This particular type of puppy needs stronger leadership than the one that has an opposite behavior, and is more submissive and mellow.

There are many books and many authors with as many theories about canine behavior, training, etc. You can learn a lot from some of them. I personally don't focus on one theory only as in the "one and only". I adapt to my dog rearing and training methods what seems to me that makes sense and is worthy. Personally, I don't believe in "there is one way, and no other way". One has to remain open minded http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[WorkinDogz]

I agree German. Even in the youngest of pups, from the time of whelp, they are fighting for their "position" in the pack. From squirming and fighting for the nipple to nurse, to fighting for the largest amount of food when on solids, toys, the "spot" closest to the bitch etc.

Think about it. How much food aggression would there be if they didn't have to "fight" for their share? If breeders would feed each pup seperately? How many 8 week old pups would growl and snap at the "new human" trying to get into "thier share"? It's the PUP fighting for his POSITION in the pack. The more dominant the pup; the more food he gets and gets it first.

I believe in my heart of hearts, from the second the pup is whelped, instinct to gain a solid position (whether it be with littermates or within the human family) is there.

I don't really buy into the "nature training" theory. ESPECIALLY since people tend to wait until the dog is 6 months old to decide that the behavior that was considered "cute" when he was 12 weeks is now a problem. "Rolling" a dog who is food/object/dog aggressive and growling in his face "like the mama dog would do" is an EXCELLENT way to be bitten.

Dogs are not "wild" anymore. Once they leave their littermates, their K9 pack order is disrupted. Even if it's a multi-dog household.

To expect for this dog to "just get over it" because you fooled him into thinking that you're a mama dog or a littermate is really setting not the dog but the OWNER up for failure.

[Vicki]

I agree that it is impossible for humans to accurately convey the complexities of dog body language and corrections; that was my point. [Though Turid Rugaas's work on Calming Signals will vastly improve your understanding of what dogs are trying to convey with different body language.] We want to teach the puppy how to live with humans. Thus the training is not "don't bite or chew" but instead "bite and chew this item humans call a chew toy". As for "waiting to train", that is definitely a fallacy fostered by those with little understanding of dogs. The puppy IS being trained every minute of every day. The human is responsible for teaching the dog the knowledge a dog must have to live with people. Beyond that, the human is responsible for the dog's safety and well being, both physical and mental. I think a concept that often gets overlooked by those who think force is the only way is that puppies LOVE to learn. When the little one gets crazed stand up, turn your back on the puppy, and ignore it. If that will work, why would you want to do anything more? Grabbing the dog, shaking the dog, holding the dog's tongue, there is no natural equivalent of that in the dog kingdom. Young dogs desperately need discipline, but only by those who understand that discipline comes from the word to teach, not punish.

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[German Vanegas]

My point precisely Workingdogz http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[WorkinDogz]

Well...I agree and disagree at the same time.

In a recent thread, an owner practiced exactly what you describe above. Ignore unwanted behavior. If the dog doesn't want to go outside when you want him to, ignore him. Allow him to decide when he wants to go out....and if the human "suggests" a little more than he'd like...just growl. Makes the human go away; and lets the dog decide when he's good and ready.

That got the owner bitten. It reinforced HIS alpha status in the household so when the owner would decide (out and about; on a walk) that she really didn't want him to get so pushy with another dog or a human, the dog responded with coming up the leash. Was this an "accidental" bite? The dog just "missed the leash" and caught her hand instead? Nah. That was the initial impression of the person bitten. "It was an accident; purely unintentional". Oh yeah? Well that "accident" repeated itself the following day and with a little more "assertion" by the dog.

Why did this happen? To me it's actually quite simple. His pack order was left for HIM to decide. And he did. He was conditioned to believe that a growl gets you left alone.

Placing human emotions is no more than making "excuses" for why a dog behaved a certain way. "The dog bit the baby in half because he wanted to play".....no..the dog bit the baby in half because the squirming infant was PREY.

I truly feel there would be a lot less bites, aggression problems, "OH MY! What do I do!" posts if dogs were treated as DOGS. Understood as DOGS, and researched as DOGS. Not "furkids".

Does that mean that dogs aren't part of the family? Heavens no! They ARE very much a part of the family....but they ARE NOT a 2 yr old child. And, treating them as such, will certainly lead to disappointment. The dog is no more of a child than the human is the bitch who whelped him.

[Vicki]

I am trying to offer an alternate course for people with puppies who are seeking to train the puppy out of unwanted behaviors. I said if the puppy is going into puppy frenzy mode, get up, as in stand up, turn your back on the puppy and ignore the little devil until calm is restored. Trying to use force on a puppy that has gone into frenzy mode is counterproductive, and may even trigger a violent defensive response if the puppy perceives it is being attacked. The puppy can't possibly be trying to rule the roost by disobeying a direct order, because the puppy does not understand what on earth the sounds the human makes mean. I certainly never advised any person to growl at a dog, or to pretend to be some sort of litter mate, that is no more training than the people wrestling with the dog as an equal, albeit larger and more powerful dog. When you have a scenario where the puppy is biting and fighting, the human is crying and screaming, for heavens sake, what is being learned? Than humans are unpredictable? How about ascribing human emotions to the puppy action, as in "he was really sorry later" or "he knew he was wrong after I spanked him because . . . fill in the blank." No, the puppy is not sorry, the puppy has no idea why the human is mad, the puppy is a dog who was engaged in normal dog behavior and ran afoul of human rules. We are talking about creatures who a few weeks ago did not have their eyes open. There is just no need to have a physical confrontation with a puppy.

I don't know what happened with the dog you refer to above, but if this person had the dog from the time it was small, training as a puppy would have stood the person in good stead as the dog grew. For their own safety, dogs must learn to obey such things as sit and stay and leave it. For a happy life with humans, dogs need to learn much more. With a proper foundation laid as a puppy, teen age goofiness can be held to a minimum.



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[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

Vicky-

I don't know if you have ever had a dominant puppy or dog but I can tell you that its been my experience that unless you are willing to take a very strong position with the dog its dominance will progress to aggression. These dogs are very different from normal puppies and this behavior is not puppish or teenage its not a stage that they out grow. They need to be dealt with firmly and effectively and as German said the same training method that works with one dog might not get you anywhere with another.

[Vicki]

You hear the same argument, though not as much as you used to, about horses. Many older, and well paid mind you, trainers were convinced that without force you'd have a man killing monster. Any missed step and you should "come down on him like a ton of bricks", "show him who is boss", "put the fear of God into him"; I'm sure you get the idea. I never believed that, from personal experience and years of living, I'd decided calmness, consistency and a clear training plan made for a happy horse. Even before Monty Roberts, other trainers took advantage of animal science and psychology to try and understand how horses learned. The very first clicker demonstration I saw was a horse seminar, and it was just amazing. I'd never even heard of Karen Pryor, but boy did I want to learn more.

I think Rottweilers and horses scare people for many of the same reasons. Both are large and powerful and can be quite intimidating. I think many people focus on what the animal will become, and not on the animal in front of them. While I can appreciate that many people see spirit for defiance, I must say that has not been my experience. Once upon a time I made my living training horses, and of course while that's what it said on the card I really spent time training owners. As for dogs, there was a dog at home when I came into this world, and I'm quite certain there will be a dog by the bed when I leave this place. Somehow over the years I have acquired the reputation of someone who will help with a "problem" dog, that is help the family learn how to train the dog, or find the dog another family with the people willing to put in the time, effort and energy that the dog needs. My problem is, while I have had many dogs over the years who came to my house with dire warnings of how "aggressive, stubborn, domineering" or whatever they'd been labeled, in fact that is not my experience once the dog is with me. I am convinced that quiet, calm, good food, daily exercise, clear training parameters, and love, conquer many ills. I have had one little Rottweiler puppy come in, all of two months old, and already marked a problem. The poor thing spent his first two days under the love seat growling, snarling and lunging for any ankle that happened by. Guess what I did? Nothing. I have a huge training advantage with my little, or big, fosters, I have a house full of dogs, ranging in training proficiency from extremely reliable to still working on reliable recall. I have never had a dog under the couch or under the bed for more than a day or two. Dogs do learn all the time they are awake, and give them a chance to feel safe and learn and I have just never had one not come around; he fit right in and I actually had two couples who wanted the dog. I can say this, as well, never has a dog or horse of mine ever bit anyone, much less me.

I know I'll never convince anyone who thinks letting that little one be the under the couch monster while he was climatizing to his new house was just horrible, which is fine with me. I just want people who feel overwhelmed by their puppy to know there is another way.

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[Nancy Estes]

What might, I think, be an example of the sort of scenario Vicki is talking about:

A 10-week-old Rottie puppy and her dam are in the yard. Mom has a toy puppy wants. Puppy already knows mom is bigger/stronger/alpha/ whatever. Every time puppy tries to grab the toy mom grabs it first and growls. Puppy doesn't bite mom or grab the toy - she already knows mom's the boss. Finally puppy get so frustrated she throws a wall-eyed hissy fit, literally - throws herself on the ground and screeches and hollers and thrashes around. Mom basically ignores her, turns her head, yawns; puppy calms down. After puppy has remained calm a few seconds, Mom lets puppy have the toy. First-hand witness = me http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif. Unless the dam's deranged, by this age she's already made it clear, without exessive force, who's boss. She hasn't had to grab the puppy by the scruff of the neck and shake it. The most she's done is roll the puppy away, using her nose, or lightly holding the puppy's muzzle in her mouth. Occasional growls maybe. BUT, she's been consistent and clear - the puppy understands the language. Sure, the puppy is probably going to try again to get its own way; perfectly normal behavior. Humans can pretty much mimic these methods when raising a puppy and they usually work better than grabbing a puppy by the scruff and shaking it. I have seen a bitch, on the other hand, who used excessive force with her puppies and absolutely terrified them - routinely beat them up, roughed them up, would even sling them around the yard. She never killed one or injured one but the puppies that left at 7 weeks were temperamentally better off than ones who spent a couple more weeks with their dam.

Nancy

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von Dorow Rottweilers

[Hope]

I may not be a trainer, but I concur with WorkinDogz, German, and Diane Heller on this all the way.

Vicki,
Maybe the "ignore the dog" method works at times, like when you are in a controlled environment, like the backyard. Sure, if he bites, you get up and leave. But when you are outside, on leash, and there is no place to go, and the dog has started a situation that gets our of control, walking away could be disasterous.

You are referring in your post to myself and Ethar. Well, I know I did the right thing, it was the only thing to do at the time. Guess what, he has not given me problems since. Does this mean that he won't challenge me again, hell no, I know it will happen, but if I had just let him growl and fight for a lousy tissue and walked away, it would have simply given him a notch on his belt. This is obviously what led to Ethar being challenged again on the following day. Furthermore, your notion that we are ruling by terror is so farfecthed and insulting.

There is a point where people lose sight of the fact that a puppy is exactly that, a puppy. If animals use harsh punishments in the wild, why should we not be able to do the same to reinforce our leadership when it is appropriate? I don't see wolves inviting other pack members to a psychoanalysis session since it might be more conducive than figthing it out.

Oh, and to say that we are ABUSING OUR PUPPYS, oh please. That is a ridiculous remark.

Nancy, your passage makes absolute sense. There are plenty of times where a puppy should not be physcially corrected. Many times, just allowing the pup to have a fit so long as biting is not involved is fine. He must learn that such behavior does not get him attention, it gets him ignored. but, as I said before, not all environments are controlled in such a wonderful manner.

[This message has been edited by Hope (edited May 16, 2000).]

[Vicki]

Each person must do whatever they think best. It is simply not true that one episode determines the dogs life path, either good or bad. Dogs do not generalize well, thus the need for extensive socialization. If you are a believer that all dog behavior which clashes with human expectations must be met with force, then do it right. Put a collar and tab on the dog, and give some command followed by a correction. At least then the puppy will have a chance to connect some behavior on your part with what's to come. I usually impart information to my dogs as "uh huh" which lets them know whatever they are doing isn't meeting with my approval. I also recommend a training journal. Horse trainers routinely cajole or force owners to keep a journal, but I do not see them regularly used by pet dog owners. It can help identify when problems arise, and give you a chance to think of potential solutions. Of course knowing the dog helps. I currently have GSD at home who never out grew his chew every waking moment phase. He'll still come up and gently want to mouth a hand, but in my house I do not allow doggie teeth on human flesh, ever. So every so often I am "uh huh" and directing him to chew toys. He is not an evil dog, he is just likes to chew. I do not see it as defiance, more like he's just checking to be sure the rules are the same.

Wolves are a bad choice for harsh corrections in the wild, puppies are pampered and loved by the entire pack, and taught expected behaviors before being reprimanded. Further, there are few real fights among wolves, as they are adept at reading wolf body language as well as understanding the shadings of wolf vocalizations. Real leaders don't use force lightly; they don't need to.

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[SantaCruzHumane]

Here's another real life story. 10 week old puppy that has spent early weeks with a very tolerant mom moves into new home with 2 older Rotts. The older dogs accept the kid but have no where near the tolerance for "sass" that mom had. Puppy charges up to older dog and tries to grab her chew toy. Older dog lets out thunderous roar, grabs pup by neck and pins her to the ground, continuing the growling for about 10 seconds while pup screams. Older dog lets pup up and the kid scurries away. When pup returns she assumes submissive stance and tries to lick old dog's mouth. Old dog continues to growl and pup eventually leaves her alone, having learned respect for "the big one". This too is normal dog behavior. A firm physical correction is appropriate in certain situations."Mouthing" is one problem, a biting "challenge" is another.

[BETTY HASTY]

I know this is gonna sound strange but I agree with each & every one of you. No I really am not crazy. Puppies all have a unique personality just as all humans have different personalities what works for one may have the opposite effect on another so I feel that there is no 1 perfect way of raising a pup but thousands of different ways and who are we to criticize anothers method when it has worked for them I have always tried to pattern my methods according to the individial temperaments of each animal & this has worked very well for me but I cant say what will or won't work for someone else. Just my opinion.

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BETTY HASTY
NO LIMIT ROTTS
(FORMERLY REED'S/VON LUKEGAROO)