Setting the dog up to fail - Biting Puppy

[WorkinDogz]

Betty...no..you aren't nuts for sure http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

I don't disagree with some of what Vicki says. It's ridiculous to expect a puppy to "obey" a command that he hasn't been taught.

However; there are clear warning signs that even the babiest of baby puppies exhibit when asserting their dominance. Taking a tissue away from a baby puppy and getting an "attitude" back is THE SAME THING as taking a bone away from a young adult and getting a lot more than "attitude" in return. Nipping things in the bud at a young age...teaching aus, out, drop it, leave it whatever word you're partial to at a YOUNG age...makes it possible to take the turkey carcas out of his mouth after he opened the trash and got it for a snack.

I believe, if Hope would have allowed Mondo to have that tissue after he got an attitude with her, she would have her work cut out for her down the line. Dogs aren't that stupid. Spy a weak link...and they are on it like white on rice.

There is a difference between corrections and abuse. There is also a difference between training and "ignoring" things.

[czechrott]

I would be careful comparing horses (Prey animals) to dogs (Preditors). Studying the pack dynamics of wolves, im my opinion, is the best way to understand canine behavior. If owners were as dilligent about observing behaviors as the Alpha wolves, there would be no man-made behavior problems.

True, most of what is seen in the wild regarding pack dynamics is just posturing. However, the battle for dominance is actually very real when dealing with a youngster that wants to challenge Alpha. This pup will either win a near fatal battle, or lose and remain a subordinate, or be driven out of the pack. Being cast out of the pack is usually fatal for the wolf. In our world, a dog with the Alpha trait will either dominate the owner (Bite), learn his/her place in the household, or be cast off (Pound). Our "civilized" world is really not so different. We do have the option of not ever having to lose.

[Mick Trainer]

Vicki,

Although I concur that it is best to train a puppy tto attain the desired responces. To walk away when the dog has shown true resistance to what you ask is to create a learned behavior that can later result in a bite of the owner. You state that puppies love to learn and nothing could be truer but that learning also means that they learn what serves their interests best. If in this time they learn "Growl at handler, handler goes away" then this is what they will repeat later on. By this I am not talking about a little resistance growl but more what Hope was talking about in her post about the tissue. Clearly the dog did not know that it was to give up the tissue and to have trained this earlier would have been the best corse of action. But then he went further and decided to give his best to hang onto it. This is when backing off and walking away will cause a real problem as the pup has just learnt how to get what he wants. I have seen hundreds of dogs who's owners have not seen the true reason for a puppies resistance and then had to fix a real problem later.

I agree that when a pup is simply playing biting games with their owner that the best thing is to just walk away, but when true resistance to the owners authority is clear (As I believe it was in the Hope thread) then the pup must learn that such resistance will not gain it anything.

You speak of Alpha's not correcting a pup well I think it best to go out and watch some more litters with adult dogs. I run 2 puppy classes every week to which I take my adult dogs. Yes for the most part if being annoyed the dog will move away but if the pups get out of hand I can assure you a stern growl and a push is given to the pup. To that end the behavior is not repeated. Other examples can be seen in the wild with wolves and also with the way a mother controls her litter.

I to also believe that dogs from the age of about 3 weeks are testing their position and to not understand this is to cause problems. As with working dogs example a absolute belief that a dog is only resisting because it has not learnt to do the cammand properly is to ignore that there is a clear pack hierachy which if not undeerstood can cause prroblems.

I to like German take many pieices from many different theories. There is more than one way to skin a cat and people should not be totally one sided in what they believe and assess every different theory.

Mick.

P.S. I must say I also really like Nancy's example. The mother taught the pup that it's hissy fit achieved nothing. Did she move away, no, did the pup get the toy when it's behavior was bad, no, it got the toy when it had calmed down. Now what would have happened if the pup ran up and aggressively bite the bitch on the ear. Well in this case we would never know! Somthing to think about.

[This message has been edited by Mick Trainer (edited May 16, 2000).]

[rottiholt]

Vicki
I do agree with you. I am reading more posts "my dog bit me." Or "my puppy wont stop biting."
I train my dogs alot like you have said. I have never been challenged by the dogs I have now. (back in the earlie 80's with my first 4 Rotts I was)
I train my horses the sameway. If I am having a bad day, no one gets worked at all.
I will spent it grooming or something else.I
feel the less pressure the better I get along with them.

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[German Vanegas]

As I said above, one has to remain open minded, therefore, one cannot get fixated with "this is the right way, and there is no other way!". There are different proven positive methods to rear and train a dog. What you do is, you adapt and improvise according to the individual circumstances. However, some so-called canine experts are just "blowing wind". One recently have published a book about "How to speak to your dog"... I couldn't stop laughing, but some people believe is possible!

Anyway, it is a fact that animals do teach manners to their cubs and sometimes the defiant cub is corrected harshly. After all, mother nature knows best http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[SarasMom]

I'll put in my 2 cents here.
IMO, every dog is different. Some require very firm correction, and then some do not. Just depends on the individual dog. No one method is going to work with every dog. For example, Sara and Kai, even as adults must be handled much differently. I have had most of my experience with Rotties, so I will talk about them. In general, most all Rotties will at some time challenge your authority. This varies in degrees, but in general you can just bet on it. Now if you ignore the dog when it does this, no matter how old (12 weeks or 12 months), you are courting disaster. A baby Rottie grows up into a big powerful dog rather quickly and a 100 pound dog MUST see the owner as the alpha, otherwise it could be a dangerous situation. When you ignore the dog in a situation like Hope's, it teaches the dog that it can continue doing whatever it pleases without consequences. Now this does not mean that you should hit or beat the dog. It just means that you as alpha must have your way. The dog should not be allowed get his way through protest. You should firmly but calmly enforce the rules. We are not talking about the teaching phase here, but when the dog KNOWS that he is being defiant. Even very tiny puppies are quite capable of defiance. With some dogs, a vocal correction, or even a look is enough. With other dogs, a firmer correction is necessary.
I believe that dogs are pack animals. They are not people, but must exist in the human world. Therefore, the family is the pack, and the dog must not be the alpha.
I don't know how it is with other breeds besides Rotties, because I don't have that much experience with the other breeds. But, I would bet it's not all that different. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[Mick Trainer]

I would like to write some more to this topic as I feel that my last post did not fully convey what I wanted to say and places me on totally opposing positions to Vicki. I have a shocking cold so somtimes things are not coming out right.

I agree with Vicki that on a lot of occassions dominance is blamed for a puppies behavior where clearly the pup has simply not learnt that the bahavior is not acceptable and that there has been no ulternative given. I do a lot of training with pups that have been described as "Dominant" or "Alpha" where this is a miss diagnosis. The pup is simply resisting as it has not learnt. For these pups I teach them with reward base systems (food for food, ball for ball etc) that there is a better way of doing things.

However, where I disagree with Vicki is with some of the more extreme cases that I face or where the dogs is very resistant. It is here that I feel a sterner hand must be used so that this type of dog or situation is not rewarded/ing to the dog as to do so will cause problems at a later date.

I would also like to clarify that I am not talking about belting a dog, or roughing it up I am simply saying that the dog must learn that to do such behavior will not be rewarding to it. Sometimes this will need some mild negative stimulas from the owner to make sure a similar behavior is not repeated but it must be just enough to stop the behavior from happening again.

Like I said at the start Dominance is miss diagnosed in many cases (such as the dog Vicki had under the couch. Anyone that diagnosis this as dominance better relearn their behavioral texts) but to ignore it from existing completely is in my opinion a mistake. I do not encourage my customers to give in to their pups but encourage them to find unternative training techniques so as to better teach them what they should be doing.

Having a good understanding of the many theories on this topic will undoubtedly make those reading a better pet owner.

Mick.

[Vicki]

I do not let adult dogs loose on my puppies; however, even in the harshest dog "correction" the puppy was doing something which the adult first warned about, and then acted upon. So the puppy learns the limits of the other dogs in his realm, and adjusts. If you want to train the puppy to keep away from you, scaring it will work just fine. I can say with certainty no puppy ever got a correction of any kind for chewing on a tissue. Chewing on tissues, or light bulbs, for that matter, is perfectly OK in dog world. Humans do not think everything in their house is a chew toy, so the dog has to be TRAINED that in this place you many chew and tear apart only certain things. It is impossible to keep a weeks old puppy from putting in his mouth what he finds on the ground. The puppy has no context for suddenly being attacked; he does not have even a clue the tissue is the problem. It is exactly the same as slapping a baby who pulls your hair, the baby may eventually be afraid to be near you, but will never understand pulling the hair initiated the slap. For those of you who point out dogs are not human, duh; however, dogs do develop in stages, with puppy being the equivalent of baby/toodler in human terms.

I know moral relativism, with no right and wrong, is the spirit of the day, but I am certainly willing to say getting physical with a weeks old untrained puppy is just wrong. I feel very strongly about this, because I see so many dogs in the shelter, or worse, who suffer not from bad temperments but from bad owners. To terrorize a puppy who has no clue what he did to deserve it is wrong, and I can promise training will be more and more difficult as the dog learns to distrust the owner more and more. NOT because of the physical correction, if the dog understands a command, and understands there are consequences for refusing, and then tests it anyway, that is training. Sure the puppy will seem more docile, because if you are harsh enough you will shut down ALL behavior. The puppy is not learning you are an alpha leader, just that for the time being you are bigger.

I do understand that many people are very worried, and even afraid, because Rottweilers do grow into large and powerful animals. The level of force necessary to cow an untrained Rottweiler into shutting down all behavior is horrific. Then the dog may only remain cowed of the person who uses the force, and remain a dangerous, untrained, unsocialized danger to others.

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[Rocky]

If I am correct, the problem did not arise until Hope attempted to take away the tissue. This was met with aggression, IMHO because the dog wanted the tissue. So she was not correcting the dog for picking up the tissue, it was for showing aggression when she tried to take it. I would not give a correction if Rocky picked up something he wasnt supposed to have(other than 'no, thats nasty), but FOR SURE if he got aggressive and wouldn't let me take it from him. Just my opinion

[German Vanegas]

I have never had a dog that ended in an animal shelter or city dog pound. I have always built a strong positive relationship with all of my dogs. I truly believe I have reared and trained all of them properly and effectively... and I didn't need the book "The Culture Clash" to do it right. Am I saying the book's author, Jean Donaldson, is wrong? Of course not! All I am saying is, there are different theories and proven methods to raise a dog the right way... without being too philosifical about it, but rather quite practical http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[Hope]

Originally posted by Rocky:
If I am correct, the problem did not arise until Hope attempted to take away the tissue. This was met with aggression, IMHO because the dog wanted the tissue. So she was not correcting the dog for picking up the tissue, it was for showing aggression when she tried to take it. I would not give a correction if Rocky picked up something he wasnt supposed to have(other than 'no, thats nasty), but FOR SURE if he got aggressive and wouldn't let me take it from him. Just my opinion

Well said, I hope nobody thought that I actually reprimanded the dog for taking the tissue??!!! Why would I get so upset about something like that? Like you said Rocky, it was his reaction to my correction that required a stronger hand to control the situation. I would never be so cruel to get upset with a dog because it did something that I didn't want it to do, but when it gets aggressive, that is another issue. My mistake was trying to take a tissue away, it probably would not have hurt him. Mondo's aggressioin was not negated just because I made the initial mistake that started the ordeal, the aggression was not tolerable.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Hope:
... Mondo's aggressioin was not negated just because I made the initial mistake that started the ordeal, the aggression was not tolerable.

And that's the bottom line.

[BrianO]

What a GREAT thread! I sure enjoy reading such thoughtful and provacative discussions! It's totally worth the cost of admission. This thing is free? Unbelievable!
Thanks guys!

[MVARTANIANM]

I realize one training method is not the "almighty superduper trained in a second" method, but with consistancy, and a calm reasonable attitude from THE BEGINNING of your living and training with your dog, there should not be these dominance, biting, aggressive, tendencies in the first place. It does not take a rocket scientist to figuire out a few thing here and there, but anyone who has gotten to the point where they need to become aggressive to their animal for doing something wrong, in my book, is not doing what THEY should be doing to ensure the dog ISN'T into something that would deserve that type of punishment in the first place. My opinion, of course.
Oh, and yes I do know we can't watch our dogs 24/7, but when something does arise from YOUR OWN NEGLIGENCE, why should the dog suffer for it?

[This message has been edited by MVARTANIANM (edited May 21, 2000).]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by MVARTANIANM:
... but anyone who has gotten to the point where they need to become aggressive to their animal for doing something wrong, in my book, is not doing what THEY should be doing to ensure the dog ISN'T into something that would deserve that type of punishment in the first place. My opinion, of course.

What exactly are you referring to, when you talk about becoming aggressive with a dog for doing something wrong?... "Hope" wasn't being aggressive at all, she was demonstrating who the boss.