Puppy Biting - Cont'd

[CarolineS]

I had lunch today with my friend Irene (my dog's breeder). I was telling her that a lot of people have posted here lately with questions about their puppies biting quite hard, actually lunging at people. I asked her if, in her experience, this was indicative of a bad temperament.

She laughed and said that she got more calls from new puppy owners on this issue than any other. She said that between the ages of about 10 and 14 weeks of age, the puppies are little terrors. They have a really hard time understanding that they shouldn't bite like this. She said that around 14 or 15 weeks of age, things start to settle out and they begin to get the idea biting people is not acceptable. People shouldn't assume that their dog has a terrible temperament and will be aggressive just because they bite like little dickens at this age. Of course, if this behavior continues past this age, with no sign of abatement, you might well have a problem.

She told me of one of her dogs, who as a pup at this age, drove her to distraction with his biting. He bit her husband so hard in the chin that he drew quite a bit of blood. I didn't know this dog as a pup, but I looked after him quite often when he was a "teenager" and an adult. I would never have guessed that he was a terror as a pup, his temperament was so good. So if your pup's this age and seems beyond redemption, don't despair, keep up with the "no bite" training and time may well help sort it out.

[German Vanegas]

Caroline,
You have to explain to your breeder this issue a little more in detail.

A puppy biting out of prey drive is not only normal behavior, but it is expected and desired on a working dog. Biting out of prey drive can be corrected on humans, and re-directed and channelized to chewable moving objects (prey drive promotion training). I totally agree to that point with your breeder's opinion. No problem.

However, a young puppy GROWLING AND SNAPING is a whole different thing. This is not prey drive at work, but signs of poor temperament due to different factors. My experience, shared by many other experts in this issue, have been that such aggressive puppies, more often than not, grow-up to developed serious agressive behavior... it is quite worrisome. I guarantee you there is a big difference right there. Most young puppies that display aggressive behavior, become either fearful shy aggressive (aka "fear-biters"), or overly agressive (guard or fence dogs), to downright vicious (predatorial). I could tell you many case stories about it.

Be careful how to address this issue. It may be misleading, getting people to believe that early aggression behavior is OK. Well, it all depends how is displayed... I hope you don't take offense to what I stated. Thank You.

[CarolineS]

German,

While I didn't put it in my post, I did say "growling, biting and lunging" when I explained it to Irene. She knew exactly what I was talking about.

She was referring only to a specific developmental period in a puppy's life, that of 10 to 14 weeks. As I stated, she said if it continues after that, with no abatment, you could have a problem.

I know you're not Canadian and probably do not know her, but she has bred, handled, shown and trained Rottweilers for over 15 years and has owned and/or bred numerous "No. 1 Rottweiler's". She is quite a well known expert here in Canada.

I myself assumed that this type of behaviour was always indicative of a bad temperament, but when Orville said, in another post, that it could possibly just be normal puppy behavior, I thought I'd ask someone who has bred and raised a lot of Rotties. She can also give numerous examples of dogs that were nasty little buggers at this age and grew up to be confident, even tempered dogs.

In case you think I wasn't clear enough, let me say again that I am in no way condoning continued nasty behavior from a puppy. I also know that, sometimes, this can be indicative of a temperament problem. I just wanted to point out that it is not always so.

Sometimes new owners get so much doom and gloom from others about Rotties, that they're terrified their dogs will be killers. Since I got this information from someone I consider to be a reputable, experienced source, I thought I'd pass it along and perhaps ease the minds of some of those people who have posted here. Hopefully, they will read both our posts on this subject and keep a close eye on their puppy's development, but not panic unneccesarily.

No offense taken, you're entitled to your beliefs, based on your experience, just as I am.

[German Vanegas]

Caroline,
If you remember well, Orville's statement was to the sort of "it could be either way: puppy normal behavior or poor inherited temperament".

I have had puppies biting a lot, short of being piranhas, and I know too that kind of biting is normal. It is prey drive motivated. A drive I look for on a working dog. People should understand what prey drive is, and how to correct puppy human biting by re-directing it to chewing toys (including chasing the ball), and use towels or burlap sacks in motion to satisfy that puppy's prey drive craving. I don't see anything wrong either with this kind of puppy behavior. I agree it is normal.

In the other hand, a young puppy growling and snaping at humans are worrisome signs to watch for seriously. I guarantee you THAT is not prey drive motivated. It is unacceptable puppy behavior. MOST of the times, early puppy aggression displays (lunging and charging at people, growling and snaping, etc) result from poor inherited temperament due to brad breeding. In all likelihood, these aggressive puppies will grow to become simply dangerous... whatever the type of aggression they get to develop (fearful, spooky, overly, predatorial, etc.).

Therefore, I wouldn't want everybody to believe that ALL cases of puppy biting are normal, and that they will outgrow this behavior... simply, because as I explained already, is not true. Like Orville wisely said in that reply you were referring to: "Nancy could be right, and so could German..." I know Orville will agree to what I stated here, somewhat in his own way. Orville and I seem like in oppossite poles, but you would be surprise how closely we share our ideas and opinions regarding Rottweilers in general... even though he and I argue a lot (most all kind of relationships are like that anyway)

As much as I respect your show breeder friend, I also have dealt with working dogs for 25 years. I have worked in personal protection, security, and sport training with different qualifying dog breeds other than the Rottweiler... my beliefs and opinions are not off the wall. Thank You.

[irenej]

Hello to all of my fellow Rottweiler Fans.
I have been following this forum on and off for some time and have enjoyed the exchange of info. It must be gratifying especially for first time Rottweiler owners to have access to such a wealth of information. Up until this time I had not really felt the need to post a reply. My best friend CarolineS has been singing my praises for so long I feel I should support the advice she has given. In response to question of "puppy biting" I must reiterate that I have had several little terrors grow into well adjusted perfectly tempered adults. I must add that this is based on what I consider a "given", that the parents of these puppies had phenominal temperaments utilizing bloodlines that produced the same. I am not suggesting in any manner that any puppy displaying aggressive behavior at the age of 10 - 14 weeks will outgrow it. If this puppy is the result of poor breeding the likelihood of this puppy turning into a well adjusted adult is questionable.

[This message has been edited by irenej (edited May 22, 1999).]

[German Vanegas]

Welcome aboard Irene. Your posting is well appreciated, and I agree to it, specially when you last stated:

"...I am not suggesting in any manner that any puppy displaying aggressive behavior at the age of 10 - 14 weeks will outgrow it. If this puppy is the result of poor breeding the likelihood of this puppy turning into a well adjusted adult is questionable."

Bravo! that it's exactly what I was refering to: NOT ALL PUPPIES COME FROM WELL-BRED PARENTS... UNFORTUNATELY, MANY COME FROM BAD BREEDING. EARLY AGGRESSION DISPLAYS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LIGHTLY.
Thanks!!

[CarolineS]

Irene,

It's about time you came aboard!

German,

No where did I say that this behavior is always just a stage of puppy development and had nothing to do with temperament. Neither did I ever say your opinions were off the wall. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this from. I basically was saying what Orville said, it might be a sign of bad temperament or it just might be normal puppy behavior. I was pointing out the possibilities. I feel I've have been more than clear enough in my posts that people will understand what I'm saying and have no intention of belabouring the point any more.

[trojanmpa]

I'm gonna get slaughtered for this but here goes...

German - I respect your years of experience with Rottweilers, however, I think "ye doth protest too much". CarolineS was bringing something to the table as a "rest assured" post for newbie owners. She made a general statement that was taken to a degree much farther than I think was originally intended. I agree with you in that this could be a puppy stage, temperament or a combination of both. Great, sound advice to answer many posts and concerns throughout this forum.

BUT!

Before the moderator posts, telling everyone to stick to the subject and not attack each other, I think we should should discuss the "whys" and "what tos" of what a puppy is thinking while moving through this process. Perhaps additional training suggestions from the vastly experienced panel of members or just words of encouragement while the pup chaws his way through the month-long process .

I think what is important to understand is that this is common behavior but can turn into something serious if not carefully supervised.

[This message has been edited by trojanmpa (edited May 24, 1999).]

[CarolineS]

trojanmpa,

I'll tell you what I gathered from Irene on this (Irene, feel free to jump in if I get this wrong!). Usually by this age, all breeders' pups have gone to their new homes, but if they were to be left with mom, this is the stage where they would be making their first attempts at vying with the others in the litter to establish pack order. There would be a lot of growling, snapping, snarling and lungeing going on with each other. I think what she meant was that some puppies just try to apply the characteristics of this developmental stage to people as well!


[This message has been edited by CarolineS (edited May 24, 1999).]

[trojanmpa]

Makes sense, especially if you watch a lot of Animal Planet or Discovery shows.

Question: because every animal, regardless of breed or species, seems to experience this "pecking" order and the exploration of the prey drive, as deftly explained by German, shouldn't an owner be able to read the pup's body language (e.g. alert ears, eagerness in assessing a situation, playful growls as opposed to fear-driven noises)? Assuming that the dog has an excellent temperament and is not displaying aggression, wouldn't this simply be a dog learning how to communicate by "testing the waters" learning his limitations within the pack (or family)?

[This message has been edited by trojanmpa (edited May 24, 1999).]

[German Vanegas]

Only a brief comment. One cannot generalized things like "normal" puppy behavior. I like Caroline's postings, which I agree with more often than not. However, while we all talk here about well-bred puppies with sound temperaments, the sad reality is, that the vast majority do not come from such ethical selective breeding process. The actual majority of puppies come from random, unexperienced, or even profit-driven, types of breeding. Wonder why so may dog attacks and bite incidents per year in the USA? An average of 800,000! Most of them to children... the evidence indicates that most of these preventable bites come from dogs with bad or poor temperaments. Will we agree on this fact?

Don't get me wrong, I understand Caroline's and Irene's valid points, but we cannot overlook the bad or poor temperament of many puppies, thinking that we are doing a disservice to the breed by acknowledging a serious factual problem. Bad bred Rotties by shady unethical breeders plus irresponsible dog owners are tarnishing and ruining the true Rottweiler's carachter and image.

[irenej]

Happy Victoria Day to my fellow Canadians!
I wholeheartedly agree with the amount of byb's and those who only see the dollar that might be made,resulting in thousands of Rottweilers with poor temperaments. What concerns me is how often I have followed a variety of discussions concerning proper temperament. What is very rarely discussed is what correct temperament consists of. Several postings I have read say that the Rottweiler requires special handling, is not for everyone, they require a firm hand etc. Anyone reading this could interpret this to mean that the breed unless handled by an expert is going to be trouble. But how many breeders sell only to experts with several years expereince with dogs and know what they have gotten themselves into. In the 16 years I have been breeding I have taken great pride ( I know this will stir things up)in producing a puppy that any idiot (I'm using the term lightly) could own and love without to much difficulty. They were not sent out the door with a huge list of dos and don'ts, only the instructions to love, care and protect and if they had any questions to take advantage of my 24 hour support line.

[German Vanegas]

Irene, 100% with you!

However, you don't expect all your buyers to be experts, but at least truly committed people that will do their best to learn about the breed and raise the puppy properly.

Most dedicated people (not neccessarily experts) will do fine, the problem comes from people that thinks that all the dog needs is food, water and shelter, and then "watch it grow to the described temperament of the breed".

I am almost certain most ethical breeders would agree that the Rottweiler is not just for everybody... it requires responsible dog ownership... most dogs are dumped on shelters and rescue organizations for lack of commitment from their owners. They just give up! They were not prepared to handle the breed in question... Therefore, thousands of dogs are euthanized (killed)every year, and a few percentage of them are adopted or rescued. Sad but true. Is the Rottweiler for everybody? I don't think so.

[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited May 24, 1999).]

[CarolineS]

German,

Following your line of thought one step further, could we not say that "any breed" of dog is not for everyone. If one is not capable or willing to give proper care and training, then they shouldn't own any type of dog, period!

While this is probably what is meant when most people say a Rottie is not for everyone, the phrase seems to carry the implication that it is something inherently "difficult" in the breed itself that is the problem. People get a Rottie, read something like this and then start to get scared.

I realize that at times you probably think I'm quite naive. I'm not unaware of the problems with a lot of Rotties, but there are problems with most breeds that reach the popularity level the Rottie has. I guess I just sometimes feel, as a first time Rottie owner myself, that people without my resources can get caught up in the hype and fear, and start to look at their dogs differently. If the dog has done nothing to warrant this, other than be born a Rottie, this is truly sad. I just try to give a little encouragement to people if I sense this is what is happening.

In the end, we're all here for the same reason,

[German Vanegas]

Caroline,
I do understand your points. I do.

My opinion still is, that a medium to large powerful working dog like the Rottweiler is not comparison to the vast majority of dog breeds. A dog that strong and that big can be more dog than most people can handle. If such dog is bad-bred (for whatever reasons) and bad-raised (for whatever reasons), the potential for serious trouble is a lot higher than most other breeds. A male dog weighing-in around 100 pounds is a force to reckon with. Can just anyone handle it? Can anyone get committed enough? Assumed the proper alpha role? Train and correct the dog the right way? Re-direct, modify, re-adjust, behavioral problems? Understand drives? and the list goes on and on. Of course, people can learn, but how many of us are so deeply involved as you and I?...

Yes, I know other breeds can bite and all. In fact, most dog bites come from small to medium dog breeds... the problem is, most fatalities come from big dogs, particualrly working dog breeds... That it's the problem. Trying to ignore it, it won't make it go away. Let's try to educate people with a realistic approach. Thus, we can do some real good, instead of "picturing a perfect Rottweiler world".

By the way, I don't think you're naive at all. I believe you have the charmest and nicest personality... I may be "rough on the edges", but I mean well!... If you knew me in person, you may even like me! LOL!!