Cowering when in trouble...

[Maverick]

I was just thinking about this, and wondered if possibly anyone could explain this behaviour.

I have had my pup since he was 8 weeks old and he is now 7 months. During that time he has obviously been corrected lots of times. I do not use physical violence as a regular means of correction, but have given him a slap on the mussel on occasion when I lose my cool (no it's not OK...). What I mean by that is, if he nipped and it really hurt then he would get a quick slap under the chin along with his verbal command. BUT, 95% of the time it has been just the verbal correction.

Anyway.... I have noticed that sometimes when he is caught doing something he shouldn't and I go over and correct him "not yours!" sometimes he will cowar away from me. This bothers me, as I feel like he is scared of me hitting him or something (which I admitted I have done, but it is not a regular occurance and the few slaps he has gotten don't even seem to phase him (has never yelped from it)). Is he doing this because of the times I did slap him, or do some dogs do this just because they know they are in trouble and are submitted to you??

[Bruce Lanthier]

Perhaps he has reached a point in his very young life where certains things, actions by you/others, and situations cause him a little more fear. He is changing from pup to dog at this stage of his life and he may seem more afraid of some stuff. Remain the same as you are, continue to acclimate him to many new and strange things and don't intentionally (I doubt you would) or unintentionally coddle this behavior. You towering over him (especially when you are upset with him), now that he has lost his puppy license, probably unnerves him a bit more than it may have in the past but that is because he knows he lost his puppy license and may expect a bit more of a harsher "correction".

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lanthier

Perhaps he has reached a point in his very young life where certains things, actions by you/others, and situations cause him a little more fear. He is changing from pup to dog at this stage of his life and he may seem more afraid of some stuff. Remain the same as you are, continue to acclimate him to many new and strange things and don't intentionally (I doubt you would) or unintentionally coddle this behavior. You towering over him (especially when you are upset with him), now that he has lost his puppy license, probably unnerves him a bit more than it may have in the past but that is because he knows he lost his puppy license and may expect a bit more of a harsher "correction".

Ahhh I see. OK, this does make very much sense now that you explain it. Actually if you look around you will find a post by me from late last week about starting to use harsher corrections which I have started doing. This could also be part of the reason for this. I will keep instroducing him to as many situations and things/people as possible. He does not seem to be fearful in most situations and is actually very curious most of the time. I hope he does grow to be a confident dog without mcuh fear.

[RAVENMOM]

Towering or bending over a dog is a bit oppressive for them, certainly. I know I did it many times without meaning to. That AND they understand the "scolding tone" of voice.

Which is why many people erroneously believe the "dog knew what he'd done wrong" because he cowered. A dog that isn't caught in the act will still cower to the angry sound of the voice.

[craftylady]

A dog that isn't caught in the act will still cower to the angry sound of the voice.[/quote]

LOL...this is soooooo true...today I was yelling at my Grandsons....really letting them have it and after it was over......they went thier way and I looked and Sativa was under the table with those....."Boy are you in trouble eyes". It was funny.....but you would have sworn I had corrected her and it was just the tone of voice. She stayed there for awhile too!

[Anne]

Good advice already given. Just one thing, please stop slapping your dog. It will make him fear you. Some of his fear may well have been caused by your hitting him.

[Maverick]

Originally Posted by Anne

Good advice already given. Just one thing, please stop slapping your dog. It will make him fear you. Some of his fear may well have been caused by your hitting him.

I already admitted above that I know it isn't ok..... I don't think before I do it obviously or I wouldn't do it. I try my best.

[akflorjancic]

Our rescue goes into the other room when I watch football games because I'll raise my voice at the TV (on occasion....). She must think I'm cross with her, so I try to bring out her toys and play while we watch. I feel bad....

[cgrubb]

Although I can relate to your frustration, slapping is never appropriate! It teaches the dog absolutely nothing positive.

My husband is a K9 handler/instructor, so I've learned many helpful training techniques.

The most effective method of correcting negative behavior (for us anyway), is to "roll him"... This method should be saved for the "serious" issues... For example, if my Capone starts to growl at me out of anger (usually a rawhide is involved) he gets "rolled".

It takes a bit of muscle, but you need to firmly roll him over onto his back (I'm about 120 lbs and my rottie is about 105 so it takes all of me to achieve this). Anyway, I hover over him (apply just enough body weight to make him know you're there). While doing this, make DIRECT eye contact with him while making a "DON'T EVEN TRY IT MISTER" face. In a stern voice, tell him "NO"... Don't scream or holler... Calm, but stern works best with dogs. Continue to hold him down while making eye contact... DON'T LOOK AWAY!!!

Eventually, (it may be a minute or two or three for the really stubborn Rotts) they will ultimately break eye contact in submission.

Do be careful when letting him back up the first few times, as he may be a bit startled and angry because of what you've just done to him. (Don't worry, as you haven't hurt him physically, just maybe bruised his pride a little.) If he snaps at you, "roll" him again until he knows who's boss.

Hope this helps!

[spidey]

"Rolling" is EXTREMELY outdated, thoroughly discredited (even by people who used to advise using it, like the Monks of New Skete), is based on faulty information (we now know that dogs do not roll each other over - dogs roll over FOR each other) and is a great way to get bitten. Please do not advise people to use this method, it serves no useful purpose and can be seriously dangerous.

[Anne]

Roll the wrong dog and chances are you will lose your face. Then the dog loses its life all because of a dangerous manouevre by it's owner. If the dog doesn't get your face on the first roll you then try again????? Wrong advice by a mile.

I had no idea people still believe in this old and useless method. Worse still I find it hard to believe a K9 handler/instructor would not have found a more successful way to train dogs. I would run a mile from any trainer who suggested this method.

[Judi W]

A working dog that allowed itself to be rolled should be washed out of the program immediately. Now, as a courage and IQ test for handlers, it might be interesting. Certainly thin the ranks of handlers.

It doesn't take a lot of courage or intelligence to bully a puppy. With an adult, it is only rolled because it allows it and is of a forgiving nature. Rolling a dog can be serious business as a strong dog's reflex is survival which means to fight back. A soft dog doesn't need such a heavy correction. Depending upon a physical fight in order to establish leadership is operating on shakey ground indeed as the truth is, in a true physical fight, the dog has the advantage.

[Platzz]

As I understand your post you "Chin Cuffed" the pup. Ie. open hand up under the chin witch may result in the jaws closing fast enough to click the pups teeth or may it lightly bite it's tongue or lips. I believe with a biting pup there are times when this is acceptibale. If done correctly(without excessive force) it is very effective and usually doesn't need top be done more than once.

There are a few web pages out there that discuss the mental developement stages in a dogs life. There are a few fear periods. When a dog becomes fearful of things that never bothered them before. I think you'd benifit from that info.

I believe pinning a puppy is a proper and effective correction. It is a correction done to puppys by adult dogs. My Elsa got that very treatment from my 11 Y.O. male for being to annoying.

I have pics of HIM being pinned as a 7 wk old puppy at the breeders farm prior to having him shipped.

I agree that pinning is a HIGH risk move at the least, on an adult dog for many reason beyond physical safety. Of course if a puppy is rasied propertly, there should be a reason to pin an adult in the 1st place.

[cgrubb]

Roll the wrong dog and chances are you will lose your face. Then the dog loses its life all because of a dangerous manouevre by it's owner. If the dog doesn't get your face on the first roll you then try again????? Wrong advice by a mile.

I had no idea people still believe in this old and useless method. Worse still I find it hard to believe a K9 handler/instructor would not have found a more successful way to train dogs. I would run a mile from any trainer who suggested this method.


First off, how can I be wrong if the rolling technique has worked for both my Rottweiler and my husband's K9... And many, many other dogs? My suggestion was to a frustrated individual who was seeking help with his dog.

Secondly, if you think you will lose your face, you are afraid of your dog, and your dog knows it. Very bad, especially with a breed like this. Your dog has the upper hand, and although you don't know it, he does.

As for the rolling method being old, I wasn't aware that dogs only thrived and/or responded to "new" methods of training?!?!?! And how can it be useless if it's worked???

As a side note, my husband has been training dogs for many, many years. He has worked with and has been trained by reputable dog training facilities both domestically and internationally. What are your credientals? While not every facility teaches the rolling method, it is still widely used and very effective... Dogs can be like diets - What works for one, may not work for another.

Perhaps you should spend some time at a PROFESSIONAL training facilty instead of the Saturday morning "classes" at Petsmart or Petco... These so-called classes only take your money and the dogs learn absolutely nothing. That's like sending a child to therapy 1 hour every week in hopes of teaching him how to talk or walk. It's pointless and the dog will be so overwhelmed by the sounds and smells and sights at the store, you'll be wasting your time.

... Kind of how I've done by responding to your post.

Think I'll stick with the professional forums... Where ideas are embraced and welcomed, and not shot down by folks like you.

[Storm]

Your dog may have learnt that by showing this behavior he is able to eleviate the "stress". What then happens they tend to resort to that specific behavior whenever they perceive "threat" etc. as it in their mind takes away the stress. If it bothers you be careful not to reinforce it by telling the dog it's alright as then the dog will likely reinforce the behavior to get you to show pity. Must also add it is a pity thay puppies get wacked or reprimanded in certain ways, it is often people who lack understanding as to how to stimulate and develop positively. You can not put a puppy in a home environment and expect it to be as good as gold 24/7.