New Owners in Germany with concerns (Long)

[BoogerRed]

Hello. We are Americans who just moved to Germany. (Wife is a DOD School teacher) We brought home Axel (Four year old male Rottweiler) from the local German pound.

The history that we know of with the dog. The initial owners were German. The husband LOVED this dog. The wife HATED him and was ultimately the reason he was given up. We visited Axel 5 times over the course of the week before deciding to give him a try at home. In those 5 visits when we're waiting to put him back in his pen, he has had several instances of small children approaching him from behind and petting his hind quarters and that doesn't phase him a bit. Other dogs he seems to be VERY good with. Only one time did he look aggressive towards another dog and that's when this dog beared it's teeth at him.

Yesterday we took him to a friends house where he was met by a VERY territorial lab. He was very submissive to this dog despite being MUCH bigger. Their children, 3rd grader and 7th grader were all over him petting and playing and didn't have a problem at all. Seemed to enjoy it. Here is also where we saw the first sign of aggression. The daughter hugged him around his neck and he let out a subtle growl. My wife did the same thing and he did it again. I did it and he had no problem. I noticed that several teeth on one side of his head are chipped and his lower left K-9 is actually broken at the tip. My THEORY is the former owners' wife was very abusive towards him, hence not liking the hugs around the neck from females.

When I was called into the room and my wife showed me by hugging him I IMMEDIATELY got VERY loud with him and pushed him down by the back of his neck. He got VERY submissive. My wife wont repeat the huggs for obvious reasons. Other than that he is very affectionate towards her but prefers me.

I have experience with the breed being a former police officer. I have had some training on how to act around working dogs and my good friend was the handler to Sampson who was at the time the largest known working dog in law enforcement and military. (43 inches tall and 210 pounds)

The kennel where we are adopting him from normally does not permit Americans to adopt their dogs. We came in and while all the other dogs were going crazy he sat very calmly at his door and as we got closer he started wagging his "nub" looking excited. I've only heard him bark once.

He does have training. He sits, stays, goes down, on command. He knows "Wanna go for a ride?" and loves riding in a car. He knows, "Go get your ball" and avoids the kitchen. My wife has been trying to let him know it's ok for him to go in the kitchen.

Here's the kicker. We are expecting our first child in January. My wife LOVES this dog but I am a bit cautious with him and nervous. I want to give him every chance in the world but feel like the first growl towards the new baby would be enough to put him right back to the kennel where we got him. With what I've explained I would like to know from experienced Rott owners, should I be worried about him getting aggressive when the baby arrives? I have read that it's an idea to bring a crying baby doll home to familiarize him with the sounds. I don't know that I agree with the practice because IMO he would be able to tell the difference.

I'll shush now and look for some good feedback. Thanks for reading this far.

[brunie's mom]

You have a dog that hardly knows you or your family, you just adopted and you are taking him out to friends homes?????
Please do not hug this dog...do not let anyone else hug this dog.
Many Rottweilers do not like to be hugged. I would never, ever let anyone hug my dogs....and I know my dogs!!!!!

Rottweilers are not teddy bears.....I think it was JudiW that said if you need to hug something hug your wife/husband, child or friend.....but do not hug a dog that is strange to you or let anyone hug him.

This dog has to get to know you and trust you. He is a stranger now...give him some time to fit into your home and family. Get him into an obedience class so that you can form a bond with him.

He may never be a "huggy" type of dog....are you prepared for that???

Gina

[Judi W]

Well, I just finished emptying the pee out of my shoes.

This is an adult Rottweiler that you do not know and should be handled with respect. Although many tolerate it, darn few dogs enjoy being "hugged". That is not an expression of affection in the dog world, but rather an insult. Also putting him into contact with small children, regardless of the fact that he has appeared quite tolerant, carries the same cautions. You do not know this dog. None of this means he is not a good dog, in fact he sounds like a very good dog, but no one should acquire a Rottweiler with the idea that it is going to be entertainment.

He is an extremely tolerant dog that carefully explained that he found something insulting and offensive even though he had to explain it over and over. Many dogs would have decided that if people do not understand the growl, they would need to resort to teeth. He did not do that which showed great restraint on his part towards rather foolish human actions. It is extremely foolish to continue to push a dog that has expressed himself just in order to demonstrate it. What were you all trying to do, push him into a bite?

I can easily understand why they do not adopt to Americans. Too many Americans do not understand a dog with a working heritage and want it to be something it is not. Most of the dogs raised in Germany are raised to be workers. If you elect to keep this dog (which as I said sounds like a good dog to me), you need to give him that which will enable him to thrive and really become a partner. He needs to get to work and do a goodly amount of obedience as that is how he will bond. It is during work that he learns his position in relation to the people that he is going to be expected to view as leaders. He will be a happy dog and you will be a happy owner. Please do not put him in a position where he is going to be pushed into making a mistake.

[Bucky's Mom]

Welcome to the forums. I think if you do a search on hugging dogs and rescue honeymoon periods you will find lots of information here in addition to the excellent advice you have been given so far.

Edited to say here is a link to get you started:

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sea...earchid=491406

[BoogerRed]

The first instance of small children was totally out of our control. We were talking to the kennel owner when my wife caught the two young kids petting his hind quarters. My heart jumped out of the top of my head but seeing his reaction told me he just might be a good family dog.

I was not in the room for the "hugging" as it was happening. Only for when my wife wanted me to see if what they were hearing was actually a growl. A subtle one it was, but a growl none the less. Almost like a bout of indigestion.

I don't agree with dogs not enjoying affection. I am a former police officer and the department I worked for encouraged K-9 officers to take their dogs home with them. My friend was a handler and his dog was the largest known working dog at the time in military and law enforcement. He was VERY affectionate to the children in the house and never showed any aversion to hugs from the children.

The reason this place didn't normally allow American's to adopt was not the "not understanding" of the breed. It was because too many Americans would abandon the dogs when they moved on to another station. When I went into his pen to meet him for the first time he was almost too friendly. Went as far as rolling on his back to get a belly rub. What allowed us to adopt Axel was when he got lose from one of the workers while we were putting him up and looked like he was going after a small breed dog that was being walked to another pen. I went after him shouting his name and jerked him up by his collar and walked him right back to his pen. That's when the German owner explained she normally doesn't allow American's to adopt dogs from her but since I showed no fear of the dog and he showed submissiveness towards me, she wanted us to visit him more and take him home over the Labor Day weekend for a tryout. With the exception of the not liking arms around him from females all couldn't have gone better. We go in tomorrow to make our donation and do the paperwork providing he doesn't launch himself at a passerby through the window during the night or kill us in our sleep. ;) Not likely to happen.

I appreciate the passion people here have for the breed and the great input. Please understand. I am not a rookie with the breed and have seen first hand what a working dog can do. I've explained to my wife that the hugging aversion will probably not be trained out of him. So just don't do it and don't let anyone else do it. I should have said that in my initial post.

[brunie's mom]

No one here suggested that you do not show a dog any affection. We just told you to stop hugging this dog.
Many dogs enjoy to be patted or scratched...they do not like being hugged. One of my own dogs that came to me as a rescue does not like to be hugged...she has growled when she first came to us if anyone tried to hug her...now she tolerates it...but you can see it makes her uncomfortable. Why set up a dog to bite?? I see no reason for it.

My younger dog is almost 18 months old, we have had him since he was almost 8 weeks of age....we can hug him and he enjoys it. I would not let anyone but my own family (husband and son) hug him. I do not want to set up my dog to bite.

Getting a dog from a shelter or a rescue situation is so much more different then raising a pup from a young age. Both are good....but you must do things differently. Please take it slow and easy with him. Get to know this dog well, let him trust you....before you start taking him to friends homes and having him around strangers...adults and children.

Do not set him up to fail.

Gina

[Judi W]

I did not at all say they did not enjoy affection. I stated that although many tolerate hugs (usually from those they really care about and know), most dogs do not view hugs the same way people do. Clasping around the neck/whithers area is a strong show of dominance and not a particularly good idea for an unknown adult dog. Most dogs accept things from those they know and trust that they are not going to accept from relative strangers. A dog with a strong sense of self, will object. I doubt very much that you simply walked up to a working street dog and clasped it around the neck.

You absolutely were in control taking him someplace where unknown children were allowed to be "all over him". Again, you do not know him well enough to be confident of his responses. By being too assumptive of how he is going to react to things you put his life at risk.

[mook1620]

One thing to consider is that you are a human, and the dog is a dog. You don't see other dogs hugging each other, unless they are getting ready to you-know-what, and that is not done out of affection, but simple animal instinct. I know womeone (probably Judi W) said, that when dogs first meet and great each other, they avoid eye contact, and sniff and circle each other (or something to the affect) Again, everyone is saying the dogs might tolerate it, that doesn't mean they like or enjoy it.

"In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland

[BoogerRed]

I completely agree with you. That's why there is no more hugging for this guy. This is the only hint of aggression that I have seen from him. At the pet store today the workers came right up to him and petted him with no issues and lots of "nub" wagging. I tried to stop the first one, but she didn't speak english and probably wouldn't have cared. He nuzzled right up to her while she rubbed his sides.

Alot of questions are being answered with Axel. His temperment SEEMS almost perfect. Very tolerant and seemingly affectionate towards kids. The one questions that scares me above all others is what will happen come January when our first baby comes home.

The people we went to visit yesterday are coming over Saturday and bringing their dog since when Axel wasn't cowering in fear from her thet got along great and played well. Are you suggesting this not happen now? What point is it ok to start taking him out and around? He is a rescue dog. I don't remember if I have already mentioned that and am too lazy to go back and re-read my previous posts.

[winniecnm]

If you have seen a few dog fights then you might notice that dogs often put their paws on the other dog's neck in kind of a half hug type posture with much growling and "talking". It is a very dominant thing to do. Usually if someone does not back down the next move is an attack by one of the dogs. i am sure you can see why a lot of large breed dogs don't appreciate that human gesture

Your dog has decided that you are the boss and your wife is not from what I interpret but even after that seperate situation is corrected I would still not do the hugging thing anymore. He should be tolerant of uncomfortable situations and he was a pretty cool customer for the unwanted "hugs" IMO.

[BoogerRed]

Originally Posted by Judi W

You absolutely were in control taking him someplace where unknown children were allowed to be "all over him". Again, you do not know him well enough to be confident of his responses. By being too assumptive of how he is going to react to things you put his life at risk.

No you misread or I didn't explain enough, or I'm simply misunderstanding you. The instance with the small children was at the facility we are adopting him from. We didn't take him there, he was already there.

Now the 3rd grader and 7th grader playing with him, yes, we did take him there and he seemed to have a great time. Slept the whole way home. The parents insisted we bring him, (The wife is a vet) after I explained my nervousness with him on an hour drive after having him a day. It was a gamble I concede with no doubts. I am however feeling a tad jumped on. Again maybe it's a case of me not explaining my ultimate question better.

With everything I have detailed, I am asking from experienced owners does this dog, display the characteristics of a good, potential family dog? My knowledge of the breed is limited to working dogs that are socialized with their handlers families. Other than that, I am a novice.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by BoogerRed

The people we went to visit yesterday are coming over Saturday and bringing their dog since when Axel wasn't cowering in fear from her thet got along great and played well. Are you suggesting this not happen now? What point is it ok to start taking him out and around? He is a rescue dog. I don't remember if I have already mentioned that and am too lazy to go back and re-read my previous posts.

I would not have this dog visiting with strangers...till you know him and he knows you. Right now you are still a stanger to him. He must be able to trust you and take commands from you well. I cannot give you a time line and say in 3 weeks take him out to meet strange people or dogs.....but get to know him...take things slowly.
Get involved in obedience classes with him....create a bond with this dog...and then and only then start with meet and greets. This dog MUST be comfortable with you and your wife first. It may take a month or it may take 6 months...depends on the dog and it depends on you.
This dogs whole world has changed...he left the one home he knew and was put in a shelter. He sat in a shelter for how long? With strange dogs and strange people. He needs time.....

I would not worry about having a baby and a Rottweiler. By January you should know the personality and temperment of your new dog well. Do not do anything foolish like leave your baby and dog alone...EVER. Many forum members have adopted adult dogs and then had babies...it can be done. Just be vigilant and keep up the obedience.

Gina

[BoogerRed]

Originally Posted by winniecnm

Your dog has decided that you are the boss and your wife is not from what I interpret but even after that seperate situation is corrected I would still not do the hugging thing anymore. He should be tolerant of uncomfortable situations and he was a pretty cool customer for the unwanted "hugs" IMO.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying we should correct the grumbling while getting hugs? We've agreed to just not push the situation. If he's a great dog thus far who's only hint of aggression has been when a female puts her arm over him, why try to correct that? Why not just cease doing it?

Thank you for the input.

[winniecnm]

Originally Posted by BoogerRed

If I understand you correctly, are you saying we should correct the grumbling while getting hugs? We've agreed to just not push the situation. If he's a great dog thus far who's only hint of aggression has been when a female puts her arm over him, why try to correct that? Why not just cease doing it?

Thank you for the input.

Absolutely stop the hugging. He has already shown you that he is tolerant of it but uncomfortable with it. IMO he reacted appropriately to the unwanted gesture and should be left alone.

But since he did not growl with you and did with your wife I am wondering if he has made a quick assessment of the pack leadership and has put himself ahead of your wife. Make sure that in other aspects of his everyday life that he gives her the same respect he gives you. That is what i was trying to get across sorry I was not clear

[Carol Burke]

This dog sounds like a wonderful dog who will make a great family pet. Stop hugging him and do not let anyone else hug him,problem solved. When your baby arrives and as he grows up and becomes a toddler teach him to respect the dog and not hug him, although by that time the dog will probably allow the baby to do anything he pleases.