Agression or PMS?

[surfchic63]

I adopted a female rott from the shelter 6 months ago. I was told she had been spayed, but last week she started heat, so clearly she was not. Anyway, for the past 6 months she has been a great dog. No aggression, no nothing. Last week after our walk I went to unsnap her harness (it buckles under her chest) and she bit me. I scolded her, but every time I went to unsnap the harness she snapped at my hand. The harness has been on for a week now, as I haven't wanted to risk trying to take it off again. I talked to the vet and she said that aggression and moodiness during heat was normal. But this seems like something else. I am going to have her fixed (for real this time) after her heat is over, but I don't know what to do about this. She's my first rott, and up until now she's been sweet as can be. She's also starting to become food aggressive, something she's never done before either. I don't want to take her back to the shelter, but I don't know what to do anymore. Anyone who can help me out here would be great. Thanks!

[Judi W]

While bitches might become somewhat affected by seasons, this is way beyond normal or acceptable. If it were the norm, there would not be a living breathing intact bitch in the country.

Get a muzzle, put it on her and remove the harness. Then start using a collar. Harnesses are designed for pulling - carts, tracking, etc., but not for obedient leash work.

There are too many truly good dogs out there who need homes to be providing shelter to a nasty dog and you need to consider that as well. Is the shelter paying for the spay? They certainly should since they mislead you. They also have a heavy responsibility for adopting out a dog that has aggression issues. You should let them know what is going on.

[surfchic63]

Yes, when I called the shelter I gave them a good piece of my mind and they are paying for the spay. Apparantly she was an owner surrender and they put down that she had been fixed. We got the harness for her so we could control her better on the leash, but we used to have a choke collar. She was surrendered because her previous owners said they had no time for her. There was no mention of any kind of aggression. And for 6 months now she's been a wonderful dog. I'd hate to have her put down, but I agree, I can't live like this either. My boyfriend suggested I wait and see how she behaves after she is spayed, because before she went into heat we had no problem putting it on or off her, nor was she food aggressive. As I said, this is my first Rott, and I know what wonderful dogs they can be, so any advice would be welcome.

[sweetkate]

The dog snapping at you when you go to take off the harness is a dominant characteristic. When she snapped at you a few times and you left the harness on, then she established dominance over you. There is a way to roll a dog over and make it "submit" to you. Its not physical punishment, it just establishes your dominance in the "pack". I would suggest having a professional (because I'm certainly not one =) teaching you this technique. If she does it again, make her lay down and submit and remove her harness. Do not let her be the pack leader, it can cause other problems.

[Judi W]

I would not recommend attempting to roll over a full sized, fairly unknown dog that is willing to fight for itself. A good way to get someone seriously bitten. Please do not attempt this.

The reason why I asked if they would be paying for the spay was that if they were, that then is fair and gives you the opportunity to see how things go after she is out of season and spayed.

Get some recommendations for a training class and start her as soon as she is recovered from the spay. Don't pamper her but don't bully either. Keep in touch and let us know how it goes.

[RottiMomCT]

Originally Posted by sweetkate

There is a way to roll a dog over and make it "submit" to you. Its not physical punishment, it just establishes your dominance in the "pack". I would suggest having a professional (because I'm certainly not one =) teaching you this technique.

Make sure, if you do try to do an Alpha Roll, that you have an ambulance standing by...an antiquated and hardly recommended maneuver that can be VERY dangerous! An Alpha Roll attempted on a dog that has shown she ain't gonna take no crap is a, well, stupid move (for lack of a better word).

[sweetkate]

I have always thought of the Alpha Roll as legitimate, but since the negative feedback, I looked it up. I quickly figured out this is ancient and irrelavent. I guess that is the benefit of having discussion boards. I'm glad I through in a little disclaimer earlier saying I was by no means a professional =).

[surfchic63]

We have signed her up for obedience classes at Petsmart. Up until now she has been a normal dog. After she bit me, I yelled at her and she slunk off and layed down and acted really sorry. This is the first sign of dominant behavior she has ever shown. Up until now we have taken off and put on that harness a million times without a problem. What also concerns me is her food aggression. Up until about a week ago I've been able to pet her and even stick my hand in the bowl while she was eating without a problem. Last night when I reached down to pat her while she was eating she laid her ears back and got this look in her eyes. It's hard to explain, but I knew she wanted to snap at me but didn't. She has always listened to me, from day one, and this behavior is just not like her. Thats why I was wondering if it could be related to her heat.

[Carol Burke]

Leave her alone while she is eating. How would you like someone bugging you while you're eating. It sounds to me like this girl is feeling maybe she'd like to move up in the pack order and you are being tentative with her. The advice to muzzle her and get the harness off was good advice, then put a choke collar on her and get her to obedience class. PetsMart would not be my first choice.

[HerculesMomma]

Originally Posted by surfchic63

Up until now she has been a normal dog. After she bit me, I yelled at her and she slunk off and layed down and acted really sorry.

Yea, but thats one heck of a serious first time offense. Getting bit means the dog does not have an issue correcting you by making physical contact. Thats very bad. And I don't believe (this is just my thought) that the dog feels sorry at all. They are more afraid that they just got in trouble. But sorry? No, I don't think their little brains process a situation like us humans in that respect.

I suppose it's all pointless to speculate on at this time. Get her fixed and then see where you are with her. Hopefully it will make some difference. Keep us posted on how it goes.

[Burnsway]

I agree with everyone else and would like to add something. You had the harness on a week. A young dog can grow a bit in a week if they are going through a growth spurt. I remember having to check Psyche's collar daily. Could it have been too tight a day or two and maybe she is now a little sore around the snap/buckle.

Not an excuse for the bite of course but just something that crossed my mind when you said the harness had been on a week.


Edited to say I need to read better. I see now its only been on a week since the bite. Im assuming you removed it daily before that..

[surfchic63]

[quote=Carol Burke]Leave her alone while she is eating. How would you like someone bugging you while you're eating.

But I thought food aggression in dogs was a bad thing, no matter what the breed. Dogs shouldn't snap at you just because you pat them while they're eating, right? Like I said, this is my first Rott. As far as the harness goes, we muzzled her last night and took it off of her. She fought a bit and wined, but we got it off her. Should I wait until after she is spayed next week to try using it again? Also, is Petsmart really a bad place to go for training? I've never tried them before, and they seem to know what they are doing, but if anyone could help me out here I'd appreciate it. My last two dogs were a lab and a shepherd, and I trained them myself. Ok, well, I appreciate all your help so far, and I'll keep you posted as to how things go after she is spayed. Thanks!

[K9-man]

I'm just not a big fan of petting a dog while she's eating or sticking my hands in the bowl for that matter. You should be able to walk right up to the dog though. Can you do that without her showing signs of stress??

[surfchic63]

yeah... walking up to her is no problem. she just looks up and wags her stump.

[Carol Burke]

[quote=surfchic63]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

Leave her alone while she is eating. How would you like someone bugging you while you're eating.

But I thought food aggression in dogs was a bad thing, no matter what the breed. Dogs shouldn't snap at you just because you pat them while they're eating, right? Like I said, this is my first Rott. As far as the harness goes, we muzzled her last night and took it off of her. She fought a bit and wined, but we got it off her. Should I wait until after she is spayed next week to try using it again? Also, is Petsmart really a bad place to go for training? I've never tried them before, and they seem to know what they are doing, but if anyone could help me out here I'd appreciate it. My last two dogs were a lab and a shepherd, and I trained them myself. Ok, well, I appreciate all your help so far, and I'll keep you posted as to how things go after she is spayed. Thanks!

First of all you said she looked at you funny when you patted her while she was eating. This is not food aggression. Food aggression would be if you put her food down, she went to her dish and immediately started growling at you until you walked away. I just don't understand where the idea came from that you have to test your dog while she is eating. I have never taken my dogs' food away from them while they are eating, not because I can't I just don't see the point.

My experience with PetsMart is that they have mostly inexperienced trainers who have been taught a set routine using haltis(which, IMO, are useless if not down right dangerous). This dog is showing you some dominance, you need an experienced trainer who can get you on the right foot. See if there is an obedience club in your area that offers classes. Why do you want to put a harness back on this dog? A harness is to pull with, it gives you no control over the dog, which it sounds as though you really need. This is a ROTTWEILER, not a poodle, if you do not become the pack leader of this dog and offer leadership the dog can follow, the dog will become the leader and probably end up in the pound or dead.