Bitch fights / raising two adult bitches

[BostonRott]

I know this topic/question comes up with some frequency (can adult bitches live together in a household) and I know many on here have had negative results with anything but absolute separation.

While reading on another topic today, I found this link and felt it was worth sharing. Nothing earth shattering, but a good re-iteration.

Bitch fights

[StephanieandToby]

That was an interesting article...especially the part about the younger dog perhaps sensing health issues that we can't. I have clients who own a Standard Schnauzer and Border Terrier...the Schnauzer ruled the roost for the past five years or so, but is now getting older and has some health problems...Before they took the Schnauzer to the Vet, the BT started attacking her without provocation..."sensing her weakness"......no matter how many cute bandanas and hair-clips the owners put on those dogs...they are still animals and would fight to the death if not supervised...

[emillinium]

so this happens with bitchs that are fixed and everything? because I have never experienced that, we used to have 2 bitches that got along great, I guess we were lucky!

[Judi W]

I've pretty much done every other generation sexually with only one exception. That means that my same sex dogs, whether male or female, are normally 7 or so years apart in age. In my experience with this age spread, before the younger one is reaching maturity, the older is ready to pretty much retire from muscling their way around life. They maintain their dignity and control their space, but are not inclined to mix it up physically as they recognize their lesser strength and assert themselves only with their mental strength and then only when insulted. By the time the younger is wanting to show themselves, the elder is about 10 years of age and really doesn't care that much about supremacy. I do not support one over the other because mother nature takes care of that. My Rottweilers have always been pretty good judges of their physical capabilities.

The idea of supporting one over the other does not take into consideration that rank is not cast in concrete and changes over time. The dogs recognize this more quickly than the people so a person deciding who to support easily misses the changes and continues to push one to the top when it is no longer correct and that certainly does cause conflict.

My rule advice is always to avoid same sex, same age groupings. The age grouping means no two of the same sex in the same level of maturity.

[StmprKB]

ahhhh... a topic near and dear to my heart.... UGH! I, like the author, had a bitch fight happen "overnight". In trying to break it up, I was severely bitten, to this day, I do not know WHICH BITCH bit me.

Hindsight.... as Judy W pointed out, these bitches are similar in age....

The fight occured almost immediatly after the spay of my Ch bitch, Merci, (the other bitch was pet, and spayed at 6mos) So...she may not have been feeling well? Merci was 6 mos post op...probably healed. I took both bitches in for a full exam. Both passed.

To this day, our house is separated. We tried training, we tried, "I AM ALPHA, you WILL not fight..." We tried supervised only visits. NOTHING worked. God forbid, somebody screws up, there IS and WILL BE a fight, and IT WILL BE BAD.

The way we have had separation work for us....one bitch lives in the kitchen/hobby area of the house. One bitch lives in the Family room, bedrooms. HIGH GATES are used, both bitches are dysplastic, THAT's a POSITIVE for a change!!! Both get equal attention, because of location. Both get the same bed, the same rugs, the same water bowls, food bowls, everything. The biggest thing, is constant communication as to "who is where". We have seperate yards, a "front" and a "back". My dh and I are always "announcing" ...."Merci is out back", "Faith is in front" "I am bringing Merci in", "I am taking Faith out". I find myself announcing to an empty house sometimes!!!

However, due to this "arrangement", I TRUST NOBODY to watch my dogs. If we go away, One of the bitches goes with us, or is boarded.... and this is the way it will be until one of them passes....

StmprKB

[rottnkidd]

Gretchen - Thanks for posting this! Excellent article. Christy's site is filled with lots of good info. She also heads the live chats on Holistic Dog/Cat Health care at Pet Hobbyist on Thursday nights, and Dr Christine Chambreau was a special guest on Sunday. She worked for the Veterinary Information Network (VIN) for 18 yrs and is very knowledgable on a number of companion animal topics.
Best wishes -
kathy

[elle]

Thanks for posting this excellent article.

I am one of those ill-informed persons who thought because I had raised 2 other rottweilers (female and male-three years apart) from puppyhood to the bridge, that having two again should be no giant problem. My male was a real butthead for about 6 of his 11 years, so I (stupidly) thought 2 females would be easier.

So, I have mother and daughter, 2 3/4 years apart. Mother is now spayed, Baby Deja is close to 6 months old, soon to be fixed also.

Of course, I didn't find this forum until I had both girls. The likelyhood of major fighting between them makes my heart sink. I've been reading whatever I can find about having bitches together.

The point of my longwinded post is to ask if any of you think having both the girls neutered will possibly make any difference in the dominance issues I likely will face? Hit me hard if you need to..... I want to be prepared.

[spoteet]

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it

[Judi W]

Seasons and false pregnancies can be a trigger for fights, spaying however does not solve the rank issues if they are going to occur.

[LavenderRott]

Chase was a wonderful girl and I never had issues with other females in the house. To be quite honest, I am not sure who was dominant - Chase or Missy. The only altercation the two of them ever had was just a couple of weeks ago when Missy tried to steal a bone from Chase. I nipped that in the bud, that type of behavior is unacceptable to the Alpha.

If I bring a new pup in the house, should I get a male? Missy was found on the street, so I have no idea how old she is.

[Judi W]

If your girls are decently balanced now, I certainly would not add a third bitch. That can totally throw things out of balance and it would be two against one for sure.

[BostonRott]

Here's my "story" that I have written several times......this particular reply was in response to someone having a Fila Braserio (sp?!) and a Rottweiler bitch, close in age, from unknown backgrounds in her house together.

**********************

Places where you're going to see problems:

In your presence
Passing through small doorways or thresholds
Near food
Any prized toy

Basically it comes down to alpha's rights to territory, prized possessions, your attention, best/first food, and best sleeping spots.

I thought we could work through the issues with Froli and Devon. Devon was 5 at the time, Froli 4. We've raised them since they were 7 and 8.5 wks respectively. Both are very well bred and socialized dogs. We did NOT know about the bitch aggression in Devon's dam when we bought Devon.

The first fight happened one night when I wasn't home. Hubby was on the PC (laptop) and Devon (older female, VERY alpha) was the floor at his feet. Froli decided to jump on the couch, thus jumping over Devon. Devon did not accept Froli being in a higher place (and thus a "better" more dominant position) and snapped. She caught Froli's ear and George had to literally pry Devon off. I walked in the door at 11:30p (having just spent 20hrs in the ED on rotation for school) and there was my happy dog, ear hanging off her head. Off to the emergency vet, $300 to fix the ear, plus antibiotics. She now has some white streaks.

They tried a few more really nasty go-rounds in the house with me home, in the time frame when I thought I could solve this. I had to pick up a stool and bash them over the heads so hard that they were stunned to break it up. At that point, they were permanently separated. I knew if they got together again, it could be the death of one of them, and who would want to see their two beloved dogs kill each other?? So we did the crate separation thing.

As I said, it worked well for 18 months. Then I got a call at work (I'm a paramedic, working 24h shifts). Hubby had been out running with Froli, and Bort & Dev were in the backyard. He forgot they were there and took Froli in through the back gait. The fight was on, Devon attacked. Devon had no collar on, as we don't leave collars on the dogs around the house, and she was continuously attacking and rebiting Froli - showing true aggression, not just a defensive "buzz off" display.

Froli, through all of this, listened to George and when he told her platz, she did. Devon would attack her head, George would peel Devon off, and then Devon would go for Froli's back end.......all with Froli maintaining her platz. George spent almost a half hour trying to break up this fight, and finally ended up putting his arm in Devon's mouth as she came in at Froli yet again. He finally threw the exhausted Devon (it was a hot May night) to the ground, dragged Froli out the gait and into the house via the front door. I got the phone call.

There is nothing more horrifying than walking into your own house and finding your husband literally standing there in an undershirt, which should be white and is COMPLETELY red with blood. His blood, Froli's blood.......completely red. His arms were bitten and swollen, and there were some serious lacerations on his fingers. I had my partner (we took the ambulance over) clean up hubby (b/c he's more familiar with people than dogs) and I attended to the girls. Devon seemed to not have a scratch. Froli had multiple puncture wounds on her head and legs, and again, the same ear was half torn off.

I loaded Froli and George into the car and took off for emergency medicine..........Froli to the Emerg Vet and George to the ER. They didn't clean out some of his wounds well enough, and didn't xray his hand. The fingers got infected and there was a fracture, so now the fracture has infection in it. He was at risk for losing fingers, was rushed into Boston for emergency hand surgery and then had to have IV antibiotics for a MONTH, given ever eight hours!! Do you know how disruptive that is to your life??

The mental stress/strain of this horrifying fight has left a lasting impression. Knowing the background and genetic make up of the dogs is tantamount. I do again have a multi-bitch household, and I am ever on the alert for signs of trouble. However, the two girls that I have now are very different than the two that I had before, in both their backgrounds and temperaments (Vikka is 1000% different than Devon was).

You have a dog with a very sketchy background, poor genetics at best and a breed trait to being dominant and strong willed. Brought in as an adult where a bitch is already resident, I truly feel that you have set yourself up for disaster. I don't wish for you to ever have to go through what we went through. The horror of it all, of looking at your sweet faced dog and knowing that your arm is all messed up due to her is gut wrenching. The aggression was not directed at George and Devon has no people issues. However, in her blind rage to kill Froli, she did inflict serious damage on George (who also did not break the fight up in an ideal way).

My dogs were well bred, well trained, and well raised. I never thought it would happen to us, and it did. You've got a dog carrying baggage who comes to the household in less than ideal circumstances.

PLEASE place one of the dogs, ASAP. The heartbreak of the fights, the damage done, the cost inflicted.........is not worth it. Having to live your life constantly on guard sucks and I would wish it upon no one.

The hospital bills for the emergency hand surgery, and 3 days admittance were $25,000. The month of IV antibiotics given every 8 hours was another $3500. We're very lucky, our health insurance covered everything, but I'll tell you.......it's not cheap to put people or dogs back together.

We do not have outside pens/kennels, everyone lives in the house, and crates are used as appropriate for age and events. Part of the problem of living the "keep them separated" lifestyle is vacations...........do you have anyone that you completely trust to keep the dogs apart? If the dogs ever got in a fight while you were gone, and someone else got injured...........you're liable and I'd hate to see those bills.

Here is a link to an excellent article on inter-dog dominance aggression:

http://petplace.netscape.com/articl....asp?artID=1971

[Bucky's Mom]

Thanks BostonRott for posting your story - I have never forgotten how disturbing this was especially coming from an experienced owner and have often looked for it to show "new" people who ask about having 2 females.

[JDUCE]

Originally Posted by StmprKB

ahhhh... a topic near and dear to my heart.... UGH! I, like the author, had a bitch fight happen "overnight". In trying to break it up, I was severely bitten, to this day, I do not know WHICH BITCH bit me.

Hindsight.... as Judy W pointed out, these bitches are similar in age....

The fight occured almost immediatly after the spay of my Ch bitch, Merci, (the other bitch was pet, and spayed at 6mos) So...she may not have been feeling well? Merci was 6 mos post op...probably healed. I took both bitches in for a full exam. Both passed.

To this day, our house is separated. We tried training, we tried, "I AM ALPHA, you WILL not fight..." We tried supervised only visits. NOTHING worked. God forbid, somebody screws up, there IS and WILL BE a fight, and IT WILL BE BAD.

The way we have had separation work for us....one bitch lives in the kitchen/hobby area of the house. One bitch lives in the Family room, bedrooms. HIGH GATES are used, both bitches are dysplastic, THAT's a POSITIVE for a change!!! Both get equal attention, because of location. Both get the same bed, the same rugs, the same water bowls, food bowls, everything. The biggest thing, is constant communication as to "who is where". We have seperate yards, a "front" and a "back". My dh and I are always "announcing" ...."Merci is out back", "Faith is in front" "I am bringing Merci in", "I am taking Faith out". I find myself announcing to an empty house sometimes!!!

However, due to this "arrangement", I TRUST NOBODY to watch my dogs. If we go away, One of the bitches goes with us, or is boarded.... and this is the way it will be until one of them passes....

StmprKB

This is a great topic to read about. My hat goes off to you StmprKB. The work and dedication you have put forth to keep your dogs. Not everyone can or should do this. Good luck.

[Judi W]

Oh dear, Sandi, I am sorry I was thinking you still had Chase. Please excuse my error. Still the rule of same sex, same age grouping is a good one to keep. You are fairly assured of a peaceful group and with bringing in same sex, even with a puppy, you cannot totally predict the compliance of the pup when it reaches maturity.