pigs ears

[1sttimeowner]

hello!

i have a 6 month old female rott. she is a generally good pup. ive had her for about4 months. the first time i took her to the vet (i had dropped her off for a few hours) the vet (a buddy of mines wife) told me that she was showing some aggressive behavior. she gave me a few tips and told me to stay on top of it before she got to big to control. with toys she would tug and do puppy stuff. thats fine. and lately my girlfriend and i have been teaching "drop it" and she is responding well. i have to admit the puppy listens to me much better than my girlfriend. 2 months ago i started giving her pigs ears, and she loved them. one day i tried to take it away from her and she showed her teeth at me. i took it away. i would repeat this until she stopped showing her teeth. and finally i let her finish it. tonight i gave her another one. i took it away a few times (before it got all slimey) and everything was cool. then it got slimey. i went over and tried to take it away. the teeth went up but her face went away from the pig ear. i was going to take it away and give her a "NO" and whamo!!! she bit my hand. she drew blood on my palm. i put the ear away and seperated her from me. after five minutes of alone time i went and got her. she seemed ok but was very pushy when i would put my hand on her mouth. other than that the dog is good. except for biting my girlfriends ankles before going on a walk. thats just puppy stuff. i cant believe she bit me. shes not aggressive towards anything else. i put my hand in her food bowl and she just sits and waits until i tell her to eat. its just the pigs ears. do i have a huge problem or what? can training help? i was pretty upset when she bit me. i am a first time owner. and just need some feedback. other than this she is a very good dog. very affectionate. please let me know if i have a super problem.

thank you
ray and julie (owners)
cacia (puppy)

[Bastianboy]

I would say there's a problem, but whether it's a "Super problem" or not, I'm not sure. Bastian did this 1 time to me. I tend to have somewhat of a different opinion on the discipline subject here, but the one time he did that, my husband snatched him him, lots of bouncing, loads of noise (I wanted to crawl in the crate myself). Bastian surely thought he was going to die. NO physical harm, but man did he think there would be. He was about 11-12 weeks old when this happened. I definitely feel that this can be solved with training, but how you choose to do it is up to you (alpha roll, seperation, not trying to take things, etc.) I personally believe that ANYONE should be able to approach a dog while eating and/or chewing without being threatened. Bastian will still sometimes hold onto things for dar life, but there is no lip movement and no noise. THere have been several times that he's snagged up something that would be harmful and I think it's important for you to be able to take these items from the dog. Anyway, my .02 I'm sure it will work out if you keep on it.

[1sttimeowner]

thanks for the speedy reply. i do believe that i am the alpha. like i said she listens to me very well and my girlfriend not so much. she knows her place with my girlfriend, but plays games. i was wondering if not giving pigs ears would create biting if taking away other items. or that if i kept trying to take the ears away would resolve the problem. thank you for the reply.

[brandygirl]

A pig ear, as it is a special treat, is probably pretty important to your dog ie. she is trying to exert some major possession boundaries and is testing you for your alpha position - she is seeing how far she can push you. As a puppy, even growing up there will be a lot of challenges, if you can curb it now - you will save yourself a lot of headaches. The separation thing doesn't work without letting the pup know she did something REALLY wrong. By the way I am reading your note - you didn't reem her out - she deserved it. She needs to understand that she did something majorly wrong and it will not be tolerated. A bite should not be taken lightly. You need to go back to training (if she has not been to school, you need to get her there ) also maybe some doggie boot camp is in order. There is a lot of info on this in other threads.

Good luck

[Judi W]

Dogs have things that are often referred to as "high value items". In other words, something that is sooooo important to them that they are willing to fight for it. Some dogs never have anything they feel that strongly about, and some might have only one. If you have a dog that has only one thing they obsess about, you have to decide how important in the big scheme of things it is that they have this item. Will your dog die if it doesn't ever have pig ears again? If it is more than one thing, then you need to get to work. I normally start this routine at about 10 weeks of age so this is a bit late, but better late than even later.

Dogs that are going to guard something are usually lying down hunkered over with the item between their paws. Posessiveness and "place and position" go together. If you change the physical, then you change the mental. I start out by changing the place and position with such a dog. I will call the dog to me while walking away (often towards the kitchen where there might be a trade item) or to the door where an outdoor game might be in the offing. If the dog gets up and follows, I have changed the guarding posture and position. The dog that brings the item along is told "wow, what do you have?" I'll admire the item, trade for a piece of cheese or cookie, and return the item. If they don't bring it along, I still treat to reward their coming have a bit of game and allow them to return to their prize.

What to do when a dog does not move? Instead of reaching for the item, you should take the dog by the collar and move it into a sit. This is not done with a confrontational facing off but with you at the dog's side. No yelling or fighting, just a sit. In a sit the dog cannot hunker over its prize. If it is clutching the item in its jaws, that is ok also. Now the dog is in a quandry. Can't really guard from a sit and a prolonged sit with the item in its jaws gets very very tiresome. Can't lie back down, can't take it and move to another location, just clutching it wears thin. Eventually, the dog will release it (yes, be patient it just seems like hours, it is not). Continue to hold the dog in the sit and give praise and perhaps some relaxation massage of the skull and shoulders with your other hand until the see the body posture relax. When that happens it is over. There is no hostility on your part, just changing the dog's position. When the dog releases the item be sure to use your out word.

It is best if this is taught with less valuable items rather than fighting with the dog over their most valuables. Save that until you have a good out on regular stuff and have built up a trust and obedience factor.

It is also very important that people understand the difference between teaching the dog and teasing the dog. The true leader doesn't go around on the muscle, bullying and taking things just because they can and are bigger and stronger. That bigger and stronger goes away in a hurry. Teaching is done with forethought.

[brunie's mom]

Welcome to the forums!

I have a pup exactly the same age...and I have to tell you things will not get better till you get into a formal obedience class. Rottweilers are a breed that need formal training, for at least 2-3 years.

The command "out" or "drop it" should be started right from the youngest age. There is tons of info in the forums...start reading and learning.

I also would ditch the pig ears, not only are they fatty, greasy and not much of a chew.....you really need to get this guarding high value items nipped in the bud.

As a first time Rottweiler owner you are soon going to realize that you will have to be a leader with your dog....or the dog will soon be leading you with her teeth.

Gina

[Avengr13]

Judi W, I like your answer. I am able to take away the valued item from Star but that seems to be a good way to difuse the situation before even trying to take away a valued item.

[SonnyRott]

I would remove pig ears for the meantime. They are just too valuable for your girl to give up. Biting has shown her that it temporarily removes your hand and this is not a good thing. You don't want her upping the ante everytime she feels like not complying. For now, give her less valuable items to chew (Nylabones, Kong toys, etc.)

For training purposes, when you want something from her, call her to you (I'm assuming she already understands the "come" command). Tell her to "sit" (she will likely be holding her cherished item and her head will be slung low). Praise and treat her for coming and sitting with something really yummy like a small piece of hotdog. She will temporarily drop the item for the hotdog. Leave her item alone and let her pick it up again with a "Good Girl", pat her on the head and let her chew in peace. End of exercise. Don't bug her over and over and over again with the same value item. Leave her alone to chew in peace. Once she realizes you are not a threat to her "prize possession" there should not be further escalation. Soon you will be able to pass by her, give her a small pat on the head, and continue on your way without any growling or fear on her part that you are going to snatch her item. In short time, she may even start to bring the item to you and drop it in your lap for chewing or lay near your feet to chew. Right now, you are a threat to her beloved item and you are acting like her adversary.

If you gave me a piece of Fillet Mignon and persisted to badger me by repeated attempts to take it away from me, pat me, or touch my head, I would not be too happy either!

In summary, be consistent, continue with training, do not repeat this exercise with the same value item a million times, but rather when she comes, sits and releases, praise, treat and leave her alone. In time you should be able to approach her and take what you want if it is necessary or call her to you for that item. On days she is rewarded with a "high value chew" put her in a quiet place (crate) and leave her alone.

[1sttimeowner]

thanks everyone for the help. i did give her a huge "NO!!!!" when she bit me obviously. i guess my major question was to know if i stopped giving her the ears would she turn her normal play toys into that aggression? i think i will just stop with the pigs ears. i just knew that she liked them and any other treats i try to give her she doesnt really get too excited about. i also just thought of another question. she was very tired. julie (my girlfriend) took her to the park and wore her out. she napped but the bite took place later in the night. because she was tired be part of the problem? well i guess it doesnt matter. im not giving her pigs ears anymore. thank you all. i didnt realize everyone was so quick to respond.

[SonnyRott]

Originally Posted by 1sttimeowner

thanks everyone for the help. i did give her a huge "NO!!!!" when she bit me obviously. i guess my major question was to know if i stopped giving her the ears would she turn her normal play toys into that aggression? i think i will just stop with the pigs ears. i just knew that she liked them and any other treats i try to give her she doesnt really get too excited about. i also just thought of another question. she was very tired. julie (my girlfriend) took her to the park and wore her out. she napped but the bite took place later in the night. because she was tired be part of the problem? well i guess it doesnt matter. im not giving her pigs ears anymore. thank you all. i didnt realize everyone was so quick to respond.

No....it had nothing to do with her being tired and everything to do with her guarding her "item".

Just remember, just because you remove the pig ears does not mean that she will not move on to guard other things. You must train her to trade and/or give up items when you say. Just don't frustrate the heck out of her by demanding the same item from her over and over again.

Also, try not to add human logic to her behavior and analyze it to death. She bit you! That is NEVER acceptable. If you do not get a grip on it now, it could become much worse.

Keep us posted on her progress.

[1sttimeowner]

thanks sonny

everything else she is fine with. she has plenty of toys and does fetch, bring it back and drop it on command. even her bones. i am currently looking for classes. i am from south jersey and have done some research. i called a trainer on the phone and she wouldnt give me an idea of what her method was or how much it was. she told me to come out for a "free consultation". when i got there it was shock collar. i just didnt feel comfortable with that. and also everytime i mention Pet Smart, seasoned dog owners say heck no. anyone know of good trainers in my area? and is the Pet Smart idea no good? i even went on akc and looked and couldnt find any in my area. thanks again

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by 1sttimeowner

i called a trainer on the phone and she wouldnt give me an idea of what her method was or how much it was. she told me to come out for a "free consultation". when i got there it was shock collar....everytime i mention Pet Smart, seasoned dog owners say heck no....i even went on akc and looked and couldnt find any in my area. thanks again

You were right to feel uncomfortable with a trainer whose primary method, apparently, of training a relatively untrained, young dog, is using a shock collar.

Pet superstores typically don't have highly trained people running their training classes which is why you got the reponse you did. BTW--did you ask any of these "seasoned" dog owners who rolled their eyes where THEY go w/ their dogs for training??

Ask your vet for recommendations. Call boarding places and ask if they can suggest trainers. Did you ask your your dog's breeder to help??

Part of the Reference section of NERR&R's site (www.rottrescue.org/reference_training.html) lists trainers and behaviorists w/ whom people who've adopted dogs from us have used & liked. In NJ, we operate N of I-80 (I don't know NJ well enough to know where you live in relation to this). Perhaps someone listed is local enough to you. If not, contact the person closest to you & ask if he or she can make recommendations.

Go back to the AKC's site. The kennel club to which I belong isn't even in my state, but I belong to it because members are active in areas which interest me.

When you find a trainer, it's important that your GF go to class, too. Cacia isn't listening to her very well because Cacia doesn't respect her; your dog does not see GF as an authority figure.

[SABELLESMOM]

Re: Finding classes

I found, much to my surprise actually, there are quite a few kennel clubs within fairly short driving distances from me. (the shortest being 5 minutes, the furthest 1 hour) I never knew they existed. A friend referred me to FLAOA (Fingerlakes Agility and Obedience Assoc) about 45 minutes away. I learned from them about TCKC (Tioga Co Kennel Club) about 30 minutes away.

Then I struck on a novel idea, check the newspaper. I not only found classes (offerred by individuals) within 5 minutes, I found SNKC (Susque Nango Kennel Club)
also 5 minutes away! YAY!

With individuals, (trainers/instructors) ask around. Some are better than others. There are certainly better informed folks than those at Pet Smart...shock collar, indeed!

I'm sure there's a few kennel clubs in your area of NJ. I know I was surprised to fine good quality training and that many kennel clubs, nearby. (btw: the kennel club count within an hours drive? eight) Try an online search, the AKC site, or even the phone book, or newspaper. I know I was surprised! Good luck!

[Wolfshohle]

i am a first time owner. and just need some feedback. other than this she is a very good dog. very affectionate. please let me know if i have a super problem.

No. You just have a dog with a bit of drive. Your dog sounds like a nice dog. With my dog Logan. When he was about 2 years old. I went to take a bone from him. He growled at me and showed his teeth. He was 117 lbs. Females show their dominence early (like under a year). Males usually show it any time after 18 months. You have a good dog. It will challenge you. Then it knows. I was wearing hiking boots when the bone incident happened. I kicked the bone out of his mouth. It was an immediate reaction. If I had of thought about it, I would not have done it. And it was the right reaction. I made things very black and white for my dog. But the behaviour he showed me was totally unacceptable. My dog is not allowed to growl at me or show me that sort of behaviour. After I thought oh oh. What did I do? I could have broken a tooth. Then I could not show him. He was #9 in 2002 in Canada in CKC conformation. Logan was V-2 in New York at the USRC Nationals and V-2 in Victoria, BC at the NW REgionals. Opposite coasts. He got his CH in two weekends, winning over Specials. I could have made him so he was not a show dog if I had of broken his tooth. But I would do the exact same again. I can take anything from Logan now. I say drop it. He instantly drops it and he moves away. I'm trialing him for SchH 3 in California in Nov. and I hope to compete with him at the 2005 IFR's (rottie Worlds) and am shooting for the universal sieger title on him next year. He is a lot of dog and my dog has high fight drive. The more fight you bring him, the more he fights back. Things cannot be a fight with my dog. Everything must be black and white for him. There can be no grey.

My dog is a competition dog but he is also a big marshmellow. Things just have to be fair to the dog (in their little minds).

When you train. You can nag. Or you can teach. If you nag. Eventually you will have to correct 10 times harder than if you just got the message across to the dog the first time or else you can nag your dog forever. Your choice what you want to live with. Equate to this with kids. You can tell a kid 10 times to go clean its room and then bribe it and tell the kid you will give it a cupcake if it goes and cleans the room. This is equal to holding a cookie/toy in front of a dog's nose and asking it to heel. Bribing.

Or. You can tell the kid to go clean the room. Kid does. You hand the kid a cupcake. Kid gets rewarded cause it did what you asked, and you only asked once. That is basically how you train dogs effectively for a national competition. You say it once. It is done right. You reward the correct behaviour. Most people nag their kids. They nag their dogs. Why should the dog listen? It knows you are going to say it 3 more times and then even then you didn't really mean it.

Bribing/Rewarding. Two totally different concepts. From what I see in the dog world. 95% of dog people bribe their dogs rather than rewarding their dogs. There is a big difference.

Rottweilers are possessive in nature. It is the breed we own. When you take something from your dog, you should offer it something in return. There are also formal and informal commands. Formal are absolute. What you use in a trial, or what just is a must for home. Drop it to my dogs means exactly that. Drop it. Instantly. Same with platz. The platz/down command gives you absolute control over your dog. If your dog platzes/downs, when you give the word. It is out of trouble. It can get in no trouble. It is solid on the ground. Informal is something like "lay down" and then if the dog gets up that is ok. I don't have to and I can stay sitting watching tv or whatever. Platz is platz. There are 7 formal commands. Platz is one of them.

I also train through food and play (balls and tugs).

Like I said. There is nagging and there is training. Most people nag. Or else they bribe. That is what I see a lot of. There is a big difference between bribing and rewarding. In the CKC obedience classes I attended (prior to getting into schutzhund), the instructors were showing handlers how to bribe their dog, not train or reward their dog. It is way easier to bribe versus reward. That is why people bribe their dogs. But bribing does not help you one spec come trial day

One last thing....pigs ears....there is no Federal food control for pet products. Things like that are not inspected by the federal health authorities. You could be feeding your dog an ear from a diseased animal. Nobody inspects products like that at pet stores. They only inspect for human consumption, not canine consumption. I don't feed things like that to my dogs cause I like to know what it is exactly that I am feeding my dogs. Just some food for thought.

Also.....if your dog knows how to play with you....she will be way more interested in playing with you than anything else the world has to offer. Go by your feel. It is your dog. Make yourself the focus of her world. All fun comes from you. Then the sky is your limit. From what you posted. You have a nice little dog there.

And putting your hand in your puppy's food bowl? How would you like someone's hand in your plate when you are trying to eat. Think about that next time you put your hand in your dog's dish. People used to say to do this all the time. It is old school training. Now we understand a bit more about canine behaviour

jane.