Extremely aggressive after neuter - need advice

[Hope]

I recently had my 4 1/2 year old male neutered on advice of two vet's due to having possible medical problems in the future. Since I did not title the dog, I decided this would be the best for his life span since many vets feel it is really cruel and potentially dangerous to keep an intact dog without breeding him. Three months later and he is now exhibiting extreme Dog on Dog aggressive behavior, even with females, which he never EVER had a problem with prior to the neuter. Granted, he was always nasty with other intact males, but he had loads of patience with puppies and bitches before, now he has no patience for any dog.

A little background: The dog has been trained in OB and does not show undeserved aggression towards people. He is constantly socialized in the area that I live in and comes in contact with lots of adults and children. He is well behaved on and off lead (won't tolerate anything else) as I made sure to train him in both respects. The issue becomes off-lead dogs that are not controlled by OTHER owners.

I am not so concerned about dog on dog aggression as I am dog on human aggression (though I imagine it can escalate). But, having said that, I feel like a heel when someone's unruly dog comes running up to us and my dog acts aggressively, not to mention I would not like him to harm another's dog.

Positive note: He now has all of his drive back, so much so people often think he is about two years of age. He is eating A LOT, but does not gain any weight, which is a plus.

What to do? The only thing I can think of right now is to muzzle him, but then I am concerned that people will stop wanting to pet him, like he is some sort of man-eating animal. Then I am concerned that another dog may attack him while he is muzzled? I am at a loss. The only thing I can think is that his sex drive kept him in line with the social structure around other dogs, and without it, he has simply chosen not to have patience for any dog. Any advice please would be greatly appreciated.

[Judi W]

I am confused about what you are saying. Is it?

Previously aggressive towards other males but no one else
Not aggressive towards people

Now aggressive towards all other dogs
and people? or not people?

You don't say you are seeing people aggression, but that you are concerned about it so I can't tell

[Hope]

He was previously aggressive with intact males BUT well behaved with all females and puppies. He is now aggressive with ALL dogs.

He is not aggressive with people now or before, my concern is though that this escalation with dog on dog aggression may transfer to dog on human aggression (assuming that can happen). Nevertheless, it concerns me.

[Judi W]

Dog/dog aggression is not a predictor of human aggression. I would relieve your concerns on that matter.

I don't know how long ago he was neutered, but you are correct to some degree that a neutered dog has a different relationship with other dogs than an intact dog. Normally, however, it decreases dog-dog aggression. If the neuter was recent, I would give it some time.

I do not see how this should be a new concern however. ".......... I feel like a heel when someone's unruly dog comes running up to us and my dog acts aggressively, not to mention I would not like him to harm another's dog." If he was aggressive towards other males that might run up in the past........ how did you manage it?
In the past you had no control whether a loose dog that approached was going to be male or female so you had to be prepared to deal with his aggression. It appears as though it is no different except he is more democratic now and showing aggression towards all dogs. I would say you really up his obedience so that he doesn't feel free to react to the presence of other dogs. Keep him working and don't rely on previous training.

[Judi W]

PS,
Sorry, I don't have more to offer..........

[Hope]

Judy, I have always kept a very keen eye on the situation with other people's dogs. Before I moved to Miami, I almost never came in contact with intact males, so he had few run-ins to have to deal with in the past. If he did show aggression to such dogs in the past, I quickly corrected on the prong and brought his attention back to me with the "watch me" command. Praising of course after leaving without further incident.

Now though, not only are there intact males everywhere, he also has serious issues with the females. I have always made it a point to screen all dogs before they come up to us (the dogs controlled on leash). So, when someone approaches, I ask if it is a dog or bitch, and then would proceed with caution. With bitches and pups in the past, his behavior was quite acceptable albeit a little "unsocial" if you know what I mean. He would always prefer to play with mom rather than run around with dogs anyday; it has simply been his personality so I thought. And I never made a mistake with this approach in the past; i.e. if I noticed a large yet fixed male approach, I knew to be on my guard versus any alpha female. This never failed me in the past and I rarely ever had to correct him. The only time I ever had a "real" problem was with another intact male rottweiler than an idiot had off-leash while I was in California. Other than that dog, I never had a similar problem outside of the home.

Here is the question assuming this is a long term problem - How do I correct the aggression? With prong or more positive methods? Please keep in mind that the last two encounters Mondo had with females ended up in an attempt on Mondo's part to aggress. WHY? I allowed him up to the females thinking "it is a female, its fine". Then suddenly after sniffing the bitches, I noticed his body tense up, his lip curl, and I pulled back very sternly preventing him from making contact (these are the only aggressive acts with any female). The problem is that he acts happy to social, and then when in close contact, aggresses. So the dilemma is that I no longer feel that he is to be trusted?? I simply do not know how to interpret this behavior and am unsure as to how to curb such behavior. I am even afraid to let him play with dogs that he always played with in the past???

[bcarlsen]

Dear Hope,

I totally understand your fear and frustration. We adopted our Rottie girl at age 5 from a breeder and as we were not intending to have her bred again, we had her spayed. Within six months we saw some differences in the way she responded to other dogs, especially when she was on leash. I too used a prong and corrected whenever I saw agression and this did not help, in fact ,seemed to be making matters worse. Check around on these threads for dog-dog aggression, there is a ton of info. and I have found it helpful.

It is SOOO frustrating having to put up with other people's poorly trained or non-trained doggy brats and if your dog who happens to be the Rottie gets upset about it, its your fault! I am thinking that your current trouble has little to do with the neuter so much as you may have let your guard down or have entertained different ideas about what neutering would accomplish. As you have begun to communicate tenseness and fear down the leash, your dog has picked up on it and now responds more positively (in his mind), negatively in yours. As you mentioned these Rotties do indeed have a lot of drive and rather than trying to quell it with leash corrections, redirecting is the better choice.

One of the best pieces of advise that has worked well for us has been for me to relax and lighten up when we encounter other dogs while on leash and those dogs are free roaming. I keep a sharp eye out for dogs approaching and male or female, aged or puppy I allow the other dog to approach on its own terms while we continue to walk. If the other dog insists on meeting I put on a happy voice and consciously calm myself. "Hey Hanna look at this doggie, isn't he cute? What gooood dogs. Oh, yes, lets sniff and check each other out. Good doggies. Ok, we are going home for cookies now, lets go." All said with happy voice and loose grip on the leash. If Hanna starts postering with stiff legs and lip curl I give the "heal" command and we walk briskly away. There is no further tenseness on my part (hard to do) and I become all business then. I do my utmost to stay positive and NOT leash/collar correct as this seems to up the ante and get her more aroused. The quick greeting, the moving forward, the command and follow through with "heal" communictes that we have something important to do and cannot linger any longer. If for any reason when we are out in the fields and she is off leash and I see a dog approaching and I cannot reasonably recall her before she sees the other dog, I let them meet on their terms. I figure that at that point I am less important to both of them and they'll figure it out. This is a very rare occasion, but when done with the same "happy voice" has proved to be without incident and my stress level is lower.

With all that said, we do avoid areas where we have found to be chronic areas of bratty dogs off of leash. I also allow hanna to paly with dogs she knows in a fenced in area but again, off leash and free to move away or warn without my interference. One family member we see every thnksgiving and her two very active Aussies love to gang up on Hanna and check out this somewhat familiar playmate. Family and I have agreed to allow the dogs to greet and get reaquainted off leash and when hanna becomes too stressed by her active cousins we send everyone to their respective crates for time out and all concerned seemed to be relieved and thankful for the break. Without a doubt a Rottie requires more mental and physical diligence than many other breeds. Try to have some time with your dog, one-to-one where you can relax and truly enjoy him; do as Judy suggests and work at your obedience and perhaps throw some new "tricks" or new commands into the mix to give his brain something to work out. Finally, I suggest slowly bring him around other dogs and working on YOU keeping a firm, relaxed and happy hand. Most, but not always, dog aggression is to establish dominance. Try not to escalate the situation by making your dog think that there is something more going on that he should be afraid of and therefore self-protective of. I have noticed that our female is just as dominate as she was before we spayed her. Your boy may be too and I believe it is because they are Rotties with all that Rottie fire in their veins and behaviour patterns well worked in before their altering.

Read some more and try a few different tactics. I'd be interested to hear how things progress.

Warmly,
BC

[Judi W]

And, all that being said, let's not think it is the "other" dogs' fault when one of our own it showing aggression. Nothing PO's me more than for someone to say to me "oh, let them say hello" and then to have their dog roar and go after mine. Don't let someone else's dog to be a test case as to whether yours is going to welcome the interaction or not.

Not all dogs are hail fellow well met with dogs outside their household pack. This is not unusual at all in fact, and it is not a mental illness. Where fault lies is with an owner to lets their dog off lead in areas where it might encounter other dogs and misbehave with them, or that does not have sufficient obedience or control for their dog to mind its own business when out for a walk.

One of the things that will help a lot if your dog is showing aggression towards other dogs when you are off your property is not to allow them to mark at all. This type of marking for dogs like this is staking out property which then of course can be defended! Unless you are going for a very long hike and longer than your dog would normally hold it at home, the dog should not be relieving itself along the way. If you choose to stop and allow a relieving, it is for just that, not marking. I have helped solve some hiking trail dog on dog aggression for people with something as simple as this. Take away any idea of ownership of the areas outside the home property.

Dogs do not need dog friends in order to be happy. That is something invented by the owners. Dogs do need self-control for the owners to be happy and to be able to go out in public.

[MARYDVM]

Bliss showed some dominance moves at a fairly young age, including growling at much younger puppies. I've dealt with it by simply not allowing any greeting behavior at all. We go to multiple training classes, pet food store, etc. There is never any sniffing allowed. She has no problems with dogs in close proximity, it is the in her face (or butt) greeting situation that can bring out the growling and posturing. Once that all starts, corrections just intensify the dog's reaction. So I just never let it start.

[Mavides]

Originally Posted by MARYDVM

I've dealt with it by simply not allowing any greeting behavior at all. She has no problems with dogs in close proximity, it is the in her face (or butt) greeting situation that can bring out the growling and posturing.

This is what I try to do with Legend too...I do allow him to meet small dogs and/or puppies if he is in a down stay...but for the most part, when he's on a leash, he needs to ignore the other dogs and pay attention to me. He has his doggie friends that belong to my people friends that come over to the house to run and play off leash in the backyard, and he's fine with that...but when he's on a leash, his job is to ignore the other dogs regardless of their behavior (difficult to do when the other dog is offleash of course...luckily, we have leash laws here, so it's a fairly unusual occurrence in my neighborhood). Personally, I can't really see the need for a dog to "say hi" to another on-leash dog that isn't going to be a permanent part of its life anyway - of course I get some weird looks when people want their dogs to say hi, and I tell them that he's not allowed to play with other dogs on leash - but it's what works for us!

[Hope]

Thank you all for your replies. Judy, indeed, I don't blame other people's dogs for my dog's aggression. My dog is certainly the one with issues.

bcarlsen - thank you too for your advice. Indeed, I think my boy is certainly feeling my anxiety at this point. But, the first attack days ago on the female caught me off guard because I infact was quite relaxed. He never acted aggressively with a female before, so in my mind the interaction would be the usual. Luckily I always watch him carefully around ALL dogs, so I caught the change in posture immediately.

I have to admit though that he seems to do much better with positive reinforcement and drive rewards as they keep his attention away from the dog. For instance, this morning I took him to a nearby park to play ball. It is a dog park, but I almost never go in unless we are alone. After playing for a while, a woman came in with her young little spitfire of a mix (looks like Benji) that is absolutely adorable and sociable. At first I was concerned, but I hesitated to place him on lead and allowed Spencer to approach my Mondo. Everything was fine, but Mondo pretty much would not take his eyes off the ball and ignored poor Spencer as he does with almost every dog he meets and likes. I allowed Mondo to continue with the ball game and praised him. He was perfectly fine with Spencer (a neutered male) and so today was a positive day . But I have noticed that when he is engaged in his ball drive or when we are working obedience with his tug chew toy as a reward, he zones out all distractions and dogs do little to interest him on or off-leash.

I think Judy hit the nail on the head though in terms of how it is difficult to understand that dogs don't have to play together. I have to admit that I envy how some dogs play, but on the other hand, my dog has a lot of drive and focus when engaged with me, so I don't mind how much one-on-one time we have together. I think Mondo's idea of heaven is a an island with sandy beaches, lots of different sized balls and chew toys, and of course myself and Mother; no other dogs required.

[bcarlsen]

A positive day is just what you needed as well as a little redirection for Mondo. Good for you! Your boy has a great mommy and you two will continue to have lots of fun together!

Warmly,
BC