Growling and lunging at my daughter

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by sherri

You are exactly right, but I didn't buy the dog. I can't atest to it's temperment, disposition, good neves or proper conditioning. All we know is what we have been told here, and that this family obviously loves their dog.

Well sherri, you stated previously and I quote you: "Maybe the child shows intense fear. If so the dog is going to sense that and react." as in excusing the dog's apparent aggressive reaction to the daughter. I personally do not accept that type of behavior on a dog, and that is precisely I pointed out this fact: "A dog with the correct temperament, disposition, good nerves and proper conditioning, should not attack children, period. Not even if a child shows fear."

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Burnsway

even if the dog is playing this shouldn't be allowed.

actually i have to disagree with this... if there trainer is correct in his accessmant of the dog and that the dog is truly trying to play then the problem is, it is not invited play. rough housing and wrestling when initiated by the human can be fun and rewarding for both you simply have rules the human starts it the human ends it every dog we have ever owned my children have wrestled and played rough and never has any of them correlated this with them having the upper hand or played this way with any other people or children... a dog that has a strong leader can and does know the differance of who they can do this with and what limits

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by lblax

actually i have to disagree with this... if there trainer is correct in his accessmant of the dog and that the dog is truly trying to play then the problem is, it is not invited play. rough housing and wrestling when initiated by the human can be fun and rewarding for both you simply have rules the human starts it the human ends it every dog we have ever owned my children have wrestled and played rough and never has any of them correlated this with them having the upper hand or played this way with any other people or children... a dog that has a strong leader can and does know the differance of who they can do this with and what limits

Well Larry, I usually don't disagree with you, BUT, I disagree with you on this one. First, a rottweiler lunging and growling at a youngster is not an ideal situation. Second, I do not advise young people (teenagers), least of all children, to rough house and wrestle with a large dog... After all, the dog has a canine mind and humans, well, a human mind. Therefore, a kid or a teen rough housing with a rottweiler may incite an unwanted aggressive reaction from the dog, that can be avoided altogether by not creating the potential for it Of course, if you have an adult dog, that is well bred and well trained, consequently, you can trust, that is a different story... But even so, I rather prevent that cure

[Burnsway]

Larry I agree. I just didn't elaborate on it.

Of course allowing child and dog to play can be great fun. I just don't believe that if the dog is initiating play he should be allowed to be so forceful about it, that he is growling and lunging to the point the child is scared. especially at 9 months, what the heck is he gonna do at 19 months to get his way......

I was just agreeing with Germans statement which is quoted below:

I truly hope the dog trainer interpreted your dog's behavior correctly. Be fully aware, such aggressive lunging and growling to your daughter must not be allowed... not even if is "playing" around.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by German Vanegas

Well Larry, I usually don't disagree with you, BUT, I disagree with you on this one. First, a rottweiler lunging and growling at a youngster is not an ideal situation. Second, I do not advise young people (teenagers), least of all children, to rough house and wrestle with a large dog... After all, the dog has a canine mind and humans, well, a human mind. Therefore, a kid or a teen rough housing with a rottweiler may incite an unwanted aggressive reaction from the dog, that can be avoided altogether by not creating the potential for it Of course, if you have an adult dog, that is well bred and well trained, consequently, you can trust, that is a different story... But even so, I rather prevent that cure

lunging and growling agressivly no your right.. shouldnt be allowed and i am not trying to saythat in this situation even if the trainer is right and its just play that they should encourage this game.. i just am makeing the point that a well adjusted dog with strong leaders can with rules play like this and it even has its value in training... we have many impressionable new owners that take any and all advice to heart...we tell people that teeth are never never allowed on human flesh/or never never a growl and we would be suprised of the amount of people that then think because they have a dog that may do these thing that there dog is bad when in reality dogs dont have hands so they use there mouths and some dogs like mine growl he growls when he is petted he growls when he plays by himself cripe he growlas at his own feet when he's chewing them.. i just wanted to stress that if you know yuour dog and you truly are the leader there is not much you cant do with your dog and do it safely. i guess i just believe that a truly well trained dog does understand the differance between play and aggression and in these dogs one does not lead to the other......

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by lblax

lunging and growling agressivly no your right.. shouldnt be allowed and i am not trying to saythat in this situation even if the trainer is right and its just play that they should encourage this game.. i just am makeing the point that a well adjusted dog with strong leaders can with rules play like this and it even has its value in training... we have many impressionable new owners that take any and all advice to heart...

Then we both agree!

[Judi W]

There is a very big difference in inviting and in demanding and I am not convinced that this invitation (if indeed that is what it is) is innocent. An innocent invitation would include nuzzling, nudging and play bowing, but it is not barking, growling and lunging. I see no reason to suspect that this owner is qualified to evaluate a trainer any more than the dog.

Personally, the idea that someone wants the dog to be "happy" probably causes more trouble than not. Too many permissive owners justify terrible behavior in their dogs because they believe it makes the dog "happy". Well, those dogs often end up being happy all the way on their one way trip. The primary should be that the owner is happy and that those who associate with the dog find it a pleasure to do so.

I am still appalled by people who would house a dog that threatens their families and place the dog above the comfort of their own get. Something is seriously amiss when a person values any dog above their family. The dog darn well recognizes this. Too often these are the same who claim that there is prejudice against the breed. It is unpleasant and sometimes dangerous dogs that create judgements that reflect upon the breed.

[German Vanegas]

Once again, Judi W has "spoken" eloquently and righteously about this incident. Thanks for your always-insightful enlightenment Judi. We all love ya'!

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I am still appalled by people who would house a dog that threatens their families and place the dog above the comfort of their own get. Something is seriously amiss when a person values any dog above their family. The dog darn well recognizes this. Too often these are the same who claim that there is prejudice against the breed. It is unpleasant and sometimes dangerous dogs that create judgements that reflect upon the breed.

absolutly i am appauled also..i think any behavior a dog displays should be enjoyable by the human involved or should not be allowed

[MaddoxsMom]

Kacy,

Judi W posted this a long time ago, but thought it applied, so, here you go...
(judi, hope you dont mind...)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A short fable:

Once upon a time there was a prince and princess who were kind and beautiful and had a lovely kingdom. Their castle had fine gardens with a wall to keep out vandals and shelter them. But they were lonely and sometimes they worried that the vandals might climb over the walls and enter their kingdom so they decided that they would share their kingdom with a loving a loyal beast that would help fill their lives and protect them from danger. They studied and read and finally decided on the kind of beast they wanted. Although almost all of the books they read and the people they talked to said that "Rottweilers are not for everyone", and that they can be troublesome, they knew in their hearts that this just was not so. They just knew that the bad stories they had heard were all about dogs that had been abused and had not been loved enough. They would truly love their dog and in return the dog would love and protect them.

So, it came to pass that the prince and princess brought home a beautiful Rottweiler puppy. They fed him the very best of food and bought him the very finest collars and leashes and beds to sleep on. Every day they stroked him and told him he was indeed the finest dog in the world. When he wanted something special, they immediately saw to it that he received whatever he desired and when he told them he wanted even more petting they gave it freely. He was such a fine and beautiful dog that he was given the best places to rest and he was admired each and every time he entered a room.

He was a very happy dog and his owners were very happy. Now, Rottweilers are quite smart, so when this young dog kept hearing that he was the finest breathing thing around and that he deserved the very best the world had to offer, he believed it. After all, weren't all of his wants and desires met the minute he even indicated them? Wasn't he stroked and admired each and every waking moment of each and every day? As he got older and stronger, he also realized that this kingdom truly needed a king, not just a prince and princess. He decided that there did need to be a ruler and that he would fit the bill just fine. He started out by taking over the entire couch and being in charge of all doorways so that no one could enter or leave without his permission. This worked out so well, he expanded his authority to all the furniture and rooms in the house and demanded that anyone who visited the kingdom also admire and obey him or he made sure they were threatened with consequences.

One day the princess was busy preparing food for the prince and, with her hands full, turned and bumped into the king who was standing nearby waiting for some dinner. The king was extremely angry at being bumped at a time when he was hungry so he - what ? gasp!!!!! BIT the princess! The prince and princess were shocked and horrified and their feelings were terribly hurt. Why hadn't they loved this dog beyond all understanding? Hadn't they seen to it that his every need was met? It must be that he was not feeling well or perhaps the princess stepped on his toe and injured him. Surely their protector and beautiful baby could not have meant to hurt the princess!

Remember the children's books where you get to choose the ending of the story? Well, there are several endings possible for this story. Some are not so pretty and involve a one-way trip to the vetenarian. Others involve heavy and serious "re-education" for the dog with lifelong discomfort and vigilance for the prince and princess. Still another has the dog living happily everafter, being served by a very nervous prince and princess and receiving all sorts of steak and goodies in order to move him from one place to another safely. (of course the last is the one preferred by the dog).

The moral? "Love is not enough" and the best way to influence the end of a story is at the beginning.

[TrishB]

I guess I just don't default to "your trainer is bad".

Why is it so hard to believe that the professional trainer who was brought in to personally evaluate this dog in its own home setting might actually know more than people on the internet with only a brief description??

Of course there are good and bad trainers. But this isn't someone that she pulled out of the phone book - this was someone that she had dealt with before and obviously trusts. Sometimes you have to believe that the people actually in the situation might know more about it than we do.

Hard to believe I know....

Good luck Kacy - please do keep us in the loop. I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing if your trainers advice helps, how it's going, how the new classes you're going to enroll in are, etc.

[Burnsway]

I'm going to ask kacy one more time to be honest with herself and this situation and the forum and again post more detail. You came here asking for help! If you want it you have to be honest!

Kacy when exactly did you call this trainer in and exactly what is the trainers expertise?

[Judi W]

Well Trish, this is the same trainer that helped get the two of them to where they are today. Either the owner chose to misinterpet or ignore what the trainer was teaching in the past (and could still be the case today), or the advice and training was suspect.

[German Vanegas]

Originally Posted by TrishB

I guess I just don't default to "your trainer is bad".

Uh?!

Originally Posted by TrishB

Why is it so hard to believe that the professional trainer who was brought in to personally evaluate this dog in its own home setting might actually know more than people on the internet with only a brief description??

Simply because the behavior described about this particular dog suggests an aggressive reaction more so than just "playing" around. That comes from me, who has been involved in protection and guard dog training for just about 20 years, therefore, one of my very favorite subjects is canine aggression. I am not bragging at all; I have proven knowledge and personal first-hand experience in dog training

By the way, have you noticed that you are one of the "people on the internet with only a brief description" giving opinions too?

[TrishB]

My interpretation was that she had only attended one set of classes and had been away. Many people leave puppy classes and don't get around to the next round. Simple but true. I got that from the 'going back to classes' comment. So I don't tend to blame a trainer for people that haven't continued with classes.

As for my opinion, yes, I am on the internet - which is why I'd like to trust the trainers opinion, who knew the dog before this problem occured and now, to give a more informed recommendation than we can here. They are there, in the sitaution, we are not.

I don't know why the OP is getting all of this heat when she HAS done what was recommended - getting professional help. Which is more than most of our posters here do (when we don't give them the answer that they want).

How to judge the level of that professional? Well - that's impossible here unless the OP posts again. In the mean time, how about praising her for taking that step of contacting a professional in the first place?