Marrow Bones & growling...

[Debidoozer]

Okay - another quick question. We give Nina (7 1/2 months old) marrow bones, but recently, she gets angry when we even walk near her when she has her bone. One day, my husband walked by her and she growled - not the playing growl, but ANGRY. She looked like she would bite him. We can;t take the bones away from her without trying to trick her somehow, otherwise, she gets extremely possessive. Her eyes actually change and she looks like she might come at us in an unpleasant manner. This bothers me not only because it's frustrating, but because those bones are the ONLY things that she can chew on for long periods of time. I can't even begin to explain how many toys this puppy has ruined because she's such an aggressive chewer. We really have tried close to everything we have read about on this site. Not sure what else will keep her busy and deter her from chewing on things she should not be chewing on. I have read the posts re: Vaccuum behavior - we experience this too with Nina - id she's not tearing up her toys and swallowing pieces, she's eating everything on her walks, or in the yard. Geesh! I am her shadow, constantly pulling things from her mouth - and YES we watch her constantly - I will NOT leave her unsupervised for any length of time unless she's in her crate. That was longer than I hoped, but I figure more info is better than less. Thanks again!!

[samanthac]

The dog knows you are afraid. When a dog reacts like this, you have a split second to make a decision...deal with it quickly, swiftly and decisively with great conviction that does not leave a doubt in their mind, or back off. The second you back down it is too late and the dog will up the ante if you try to challenge them...hey it worked the first time.

Suffice it to say my dogs have all done this once...and only once.

[Dagos-Dad]

Sounds like you are going to need to get her (and you) to a trainer before it gets worse, and it will if you do nothing.

Good Luck,

[frontierrots]

I tell allmy puppy people, that anything that used to be real: marrow bones, other raw bones, rawhide, ears etc etc etc are CRATE items ONLY

These items can make a well behaved puppy into a growling snarling biting fiend. Especiall if they don't have them daily

This makingthem crate items only is called environment management. Avoid the problem whenever possible

[samanthac]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

This makingthem crate items only is called environment management.

Good advice Diane. I do that as well...with four you have to. Its all about management, isn't it.

However, there is going to be a point where the bone has to come out of the crate. I know what I do , and I would not advise the novice to do it, but what do you tell your puppy buyers as to how to handle these instances?

[lcarothers]

I'm not an expert - far from it. But it sounds to me that you must start at the beginning and start her training all over again. And I mean ALL OVER, from the basics of sit, stay, and most important NO!(used for all unacceptable behavior) and OUT!(used for her to drop toys, food, and esp. in your case foreign objects)
And, I don't mean to sound rude, but you've got to get control now. What are you going to do in 5 or 6 months?
Going to a great professional trainer will go a long way, not only does the dog learn, you do too! I have had all my dogs to trainers. Rosie, my 6 month old, has begun her training last month. I learn something about myself and my dog at each session(for every dog I learn something new!). You need an objective, good trainer to get you thru this.
I want to tell you that you should be taking her food or chew toys, pretending to take a bite or play, and give it back to her as she sits and waits. You should be asking her at this age if you can have a bite and she should be bringing it to you. But these are things that you should have been doing for months, no matter what the treat (natural or processed) or the toy. But don't do any of this until you've seen a professional.
Of course if this is an overnight change, there may be other issues.
Good Luck!

[LUVMYROTTNBOY]

I'm new to raising a rottie puppy mine is an 8mo old male. So my experience and training is limited. I would say that this behavior needs to be stopped asap. I had to pull 3 items out of my dogs mouth in the time it took me to write the first sentance of this post. When he decides to get nosy and busy he can be a handful. He has only growled one time, when I went to take his marrow bone away. It shocked me at first, since he had never done this before, but I still took it away. I guess he could have bitten me, but I just grabbed it and said no in a firm voice, but I also did give it back to him shortly after, less than a min or so. I move his bones around all the time, he seems to want to chew his bones as they are leaning against my nice wood furniture. So he has gotten used to me taking them away, moving them to a new area for him to chew. I have not had any problems since, and I'm constantly pulling and removing yummy stuff from his mouth. I would say your dog needs more training on the "drop it command", as does mine. It has been a hard one for my guy to learn, and he is still working on it. My guess is this puppy is going through that stinky phase 7-13 mo. old where they test the owner to see what they can get away with. Dont let this dog push you around. You probably have a different situation so I'm not sure if I would recommend you just grab the bone, she may have some food agression issue starting. I will let the pro's tell you what you should do, or you might want to go back to your trainer for some one on one sessions dealing with this issue.

[Debidoozer]

Originally Posted by samanthac

The dog knows you are afraid. When a dog reacts like this, you have a split second to make a decision...deal with it quickly, swiftly and decisively with great conviction that does not leave a doubt in their mind, or back off. The second you back down it is too late and the dog will up the ante if you try to challenge them...hey it worked the first time.

Suffice it to say my dogs have all done this once...and only once.

Hi Samantha (hope I am doing this right - quoting...) Anyway - just to clarify - Nina is in training - our last class is tomorrow night. It's the basics which she has down pat (sit, stay, down, come). However - she does not get "drop it" or "no" or "OUCH" or anything like that (see my other post today about jumping to get a better idea of what's going on here). I am currently looking into individual training for her and socialization classes too. I'm at a loss - people respond and tell me, as you did, to react quickly and swiftly - what reaction should I have? I don't know what to do. I turn my back on the jumping & biting (this is the playful stuff) and she doesn't stop. What steps should we be taking when we try to get her to stop the behavior? I guess that's the starting point. You are all absolutely right that a lot of this has been going on far too long and it needs to be corrected - and I do agree with beginning the basics again. I just need to know WHAT I should be doing in order to correct it. Thanks so much for everything. Debi

[Debidoozer]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

I tell allmy puppy people, that anything that used to be real: marrow bones, other raw bones, rawhide, ears etc etc etc are CRATE items ONLY

These items can make a well behaved puppy into a growling snarling biting fiend. Especiall if they don't have them daily

This makingthem crate items only is called environment management. Avoid the problem whenever possible

One last thing - we began giving Nina the bones on the deck when we were doing yard work, etc - we could still see her at all times and she was gated in. That was when the first growling incident occurred. The secdond incident occurred when she was in her crate (which is where she gets the bone 98% of the time now) and my husband simply walked by the crate. Just wanted to let you know that - we pretty much only give her the bone in the crate or on the deck. We'll stop the deck now though.

[frontierrots]

Well, what I tell my people is.

If the dog is able to chew the bone in the crate and allow people to walk by (not tease her through the crate door or stare at her) then they get to chew on the bone in their crate undisturbed, tortured, teased, tormented or whatever the politically correct term for never allowing a dog to chew to their hearts content in a safe, peaceful place- meaning in the shut crate.

My dog's know their crates are their rooms. I will not steal their bones or food when they are in their crates. Dogs need a place where they can feel at ease and not have to be constantly in training and the crate is that place. Sure I can take anything out of their crates and mouths I want, but this came abut through the building of trust and a relationship and was not invented through being a bully to the dogs. I'm no softy on my dogs as anyone will tell you, (my husband's first experience with me and my dogs was to watch me- at a then 95lbs- yank an 85lb bitch out of her crate and yank a hoof from her mouth and give her a what for,when she snarled at me for taking her food bowl out of the crate! He decided right there that he was not going to mess with me when I was mad :) ) but I am swift and fair and firm when the situation warrents and allow them time to be dogs as well

Outside the crate is a different story. I do not tolerate toy guarding or bowl guarding or any of that crap

For pet people I simply tell them if the dog developes bad behavior that centers over any toy or chewy, then that item either never returns to the home or it is a crate only item. Depending upon the dog's reaction and the comfort level of the owners

As the relationship between owner and dog developes and as the owner gains the dog's respect through fair training methods, then and only then will I tell a pet owner to do the things I do. I've got 19 years in this breed and know it well. I will not tell an average pet owner to muckle their dog and make it give up a marrow bone repeatedly to make a point.

ALL pups need to be taught to "leave it" and "drop it" by using less exciting items. Then when they get older and get into the trash or whatnot, you have some training behind you both that helps you get that junk away from them via the conditioned response to a familiar command

The original poster is describing multiple behaviors that indicate that this pup has no respect for them or their person. To me that means this pup gets no high value chewies at all, no where, until this relationship gets on track

The help of a reputable trainer is indeed indicated as well as reading a copy of Culture Clash to help understand how dogs think

[POPPYHONEY]

I could easily take anything out from my dogs mouth by saying drop it, (even my maid could do that with no problem) well maybe I am lucky.
My male once tried to protect his bones (and it was long ago when he was 5/6 mo) by growling, I just growled him back and took it up, the fun was over. Later I called him and gave the bone after asked him doing some tricks, and in few second immediately I asked him to give the bone back to me by drop it, he looked doubted, but finally he gave it to me and I praised him.. and he could have the bone back to do all the chewing party.. (just wanna show him that I was not a threat).. repeated few times after giving him bones.. soon the dog would know.

[Judi W]

Poppyhoney, you taught your dog two things, one that you are not going to eat his bone (not a threat) but you also taught him that you are not one to BE threatened either!

[POPPYHONEY]

Haha.. it wasn't only because of my growling
My hubby thought I was infected by the growling viruses from the dogs

[Greg_1111]

she is only 7.5 months old and she is pulling an attitude? OK, the good news is she is still a puppy so you can fix it, but you should fix it right away. I don't advocate playing games to see if you can take things away from a growling dog. However, the environment you want to create is one in which there will never be any problem or concern about having to do so. What you have to work on is establishing the proper hierarchy or status pecking order in your home. A puppy that thinks it's OK to growl at you for any reason means you have some work to do in that department. You really don't want to allow that to continue as it gets older. Right now is a perfect time to get it turned around. It will be very difficult to turn it around at a later date.

[Judi W]

This bitch is no longer a baby puppy. She is old enough to know what she is doing and to be responsible for her actions and reap the consequences. If you think you have to "trick" her in order to avoid her wrath, you are in a deep hole.

Snap a leash on her, haul her to her feet, move out and let her enjoy some boot camp heeling and sits and heel and sits and downs and then put her in her crate. No more bones. She will not die without having a bone to guard and chew. she just might end up dying if she does not change her ways. Do not allow your dog to stake out a place and an object. If she decides to keep the object in her mouth as you haul her to her feet for heeling, fine. Trust me, she won't be able to keep it there for all that long while she is heeling and sitting. Do not allow her to lie down and hunker over her object. I don't care if it is a toy or bone. That is the expression of posessiveness and ownership and she owns nothing. She does not earn a salary. Keep her on her feet and moving, sitting. when you have her head functioning again properly, put her in a sit, pick up the object and put it away. Then crate her.

If you are afraid of your own dog, consider placing her before she does bite someone and becomes unplaceable.