Feeling like a complete failure - please help (very long)

[eva247]

Okay so here goes. Firstly can I ask that any feedback be gentle as I feel like a right failure and really low as it is at the moment . Lets just say, Kane's even had me in tears (behind closed doors!).

As many of you will be aware I have had a few issues with the old puppy biting, Kane being ill and then the incident with the boys we spoke about recently.

Previously Judy and German kindly offered their advice re correcting the biting behaviour with the scruff shaking. To be honest, I didn't do it right from the beginning as I was worried about hurting him however, have kindly again been coached by German on how to do this correctly.

So, basically situation is that Kane seems fine when its just me and him but as soon as my daughter is around (or boyfriend for that matter) he starts uncontrollably biting. I'm on sofa, he doesn't jump up - either of them or both on sofa, he jumps up.

He seems to try to bully my daughter, keeps jumping up on her, biting her trainers, pulling her trousers or just plainly tries to nip her. I correct this and maybe sometimes he can sense my anger as at the end of the day, she is my flesh and blood and although she's 8, she's my baby so maternal protection instincts kick in here.

Anyway, after speaking with German following an incident I had between Kane and my little one I decided that was it, need to do the scruff shaking and do it RIGHT. Kianna (my daughter) comes home today from the childminder, all is okay for about 20 minutes and then Kane starts with the jumping up at her and nipping, I tell him a firm 'no' try to re-direct his biting with toys (which by the way, he never ever plays with them or seems at all interested in them) and tried what the vet told me by giving him another command (i.e. sit, lie down) and he continues to 'bully' my daughter. Scruff shaking happens (and it is right as German said, make sure he yelps or cries out - and he does). So Kane stops during this process, I release grip and he lunges for my daughter and tries to bite her on her leg. Again, same process happens, he still lunges for my daughter (but I'm the one correcting him?) so I figure, he daren't do it to me hence him picking on the little one so I send her up to play in her room so I can calm him down. He starts on me. Process happens however, this time my daughter was not around he came running to me, jumped up and bit me clean on my thigh. Lets just say, I didn't realise how bad until I saw the blood coming through my jeans. He then tried to go for me again so I got him by the scruff of the neck. His teeth were baring, he started growling, biting, barking, yelping, everything at the same time, then stopped, I released and that was it, he jumped up and tried to bite me in the face (in fact he managed to scratch me across my lips and cheek).

What have I done wrong? I had to coax him to the kitchen where his crate is, threw a few treats down (as I didn't want him to relate his crate/kitchen area as punishment) and then shut him in the kitchen.

He has never reacted this badly to corrections although, I;ve never really used any form of force on him.

After this incident it finally dawned on me - I don't want to give up on him but I just cannot jeopardise my daughters welfare. I told my daughter that if this continues I'm sorry but I'll have no choice but to find another home for him as SHE is my priority. She cried bc she loves him to bits, I cried bc I do to and feel like I've failed completely somewhere and that it is all my fault. I've let my little one down, Kane down and myself down. What do I do?

I couldn't bear to give him up as he means so much to me and has given me a lease of life I never thought I'd ever have. I suppose I need him more then he needs me. And I feel so guilty thinking about giving him up after reading how so many of you have lost your loved ones through no fault of your own and here I am, not being able to deal with some puppy biting.

I'm so worried bc of his behaviour, his constant sickness and the fact that everyone else seems to nip this in the bud really quickly and easily without the issues that I am having.

I keep reminding myself that he is only a puppy but he is growing rapidly and I don't want to end up in a confrontation with a full grown boy.

Also, today is the first time that he has also demonstrated any form of food/treat aggression to.

PLEASE HELP ME! I do take him to obedience classes, twice daily walks and play with him (which is the only time he seems interested in his toys).

What have I done or am I doing wrong? Even at this moment, I am crying at the thought of the worst........

Eva

[xdaniel67x]

I will leave the more experienced people to give you advice on that, but stick in there.. I wish you the best :) Good luck!

[Roxibear]

Sorry to hear this EVA. What age is he now? You will get some more expert advice on here but last time I did say it was the growling and baring teeth that was worrying. Only advice I can give is to get some one-on one with a professional trainer, immediately. You have to be more assertive with him, he would sense you were holding back with the scruff thing. Have you stopped cyour boyfreind play fighting with him?

[2rotties2luv]

Oh Eva, my heart goes out to you - I've read most of your posts and I know you are very serious and trying to do your best for Kane. I'll let the experts advise you here, because I never had any problems like this with any of my rotties.

The only words I have to say regarding Kane's problems are to keep in mind that every dog (like people) is born with a different genetic makeup. Kane was born with this temperment and personality and you are doing your best.

[austin]

IMO, the best thing you can do is find a behaviorist to work with you, your family and Kane immediately. Your vet might be able to refer you to a good one in your area. Now that Kane has had "success" with this behavior, he'll do it again, so the sooner you start working with someone, the better. In the meantime, I would just keep him and your daughter separate.

I've been through this, with success, but it is hard work and you have to be committed. Good luck.

[eva247]

Thank you so much for your replies so far.

Roxibear - Kane is 14 weeks old now so still only a baby (thats why I feel sooo bad). Yep, I've stopped the boyfriend play fighting with him and alpha rolling him and pinning him down. He's just such a good boy when its only me and him - its breaking my heart. I don't know whether its all this constant sickness making him like this, if its me or what... I will be seeing the trainer on sunday so will try to see if he has any advice or suggestions.

2rotties2luv - thank you so much as well for your comment. I really do want to do the right thing by Kane and as much as the bites hurt, its this feeling inside that hurts sooooo much more.....

For some reason a saying I was told as a kid keeps sticking in my mind but it just doesn't seem relevant/fair at this point, it went like this;

If you love something let it go,
If it comes back it is yours,
If it doesn't it never was....

Thanks again - xxx

[Rott'nKids]

my heart goes out to you, your daughter, and Kane! Best wishes and i hope for the best!

[Roxibear]

EVA, obviously I don't know your situation inside out but this might be similar. There is a lady at my OB with a very aggressive GSD pup, now 7 and 1/2 months. Josh, the GSD, has actually lunged at children and without his muzzzle I'm convinced he would have bit. Have you got a muzzle BTW? The lady recognised herself the situation was getting out of control. The difference in the last month has been amazing. She is far more assertive with him, and yes has whacked him for aggressive behaviour. I'm not suggesting giving him a whack would solve everything, some more experienced people on here can go into that. Paramount just now is making sure he doesn't bite your daughter. Hope someone can help you. Best of luck.

[samanthac]

You need a Rottweiler experienced trainer NOW. Call your Rottweiler parent club and ask for suggestions on how to find a Rottweiler expereinced trainer.

http://www.therottweilerclub.co.uk/
http://www.laser-rotts.co.uk/HTML/aboutfrm.htm

They may also be able to lead you to local breeders who could suggest a Rottweiler expereinced trainer.

[eva247]

Originally Posted by Roxibear

EVA, obviously I don't know your situation inside out but this might be similar. There is a lady at my OB with a very aggressive GSD pup, now 7 and 1/2 months. Josh, the GSD, has actually lunged at children and without his muzzzle I'm convinced he would have bit. Have you got a muzzle BTW? The lady recognised herself the situation was getting out of control. The difference in the last month has been amazing. She is far more assertive with him, and yes has whacked him for aggressive behaviour. I'm not suggesting giving him a whack would solve everything, some more experienced people on here can go into that. Paramount just now is making sure he doesn't bite your daughter. Hope someone can help you. Best of luck.

Its weird that you say that bc I was thinking about whether I should try purchasing a muzzle and use it at home when he starts his behaviour.
As I said before, I was going to speak to my trainer when I see him on Sunday but I think I will try and speak to him tomorrow, if not, I will find someone who is experienced with our breed. I don't care how much it costs, I will do whatever I can to correct this situation but if my daughter is going to be threatened with danger, then I will have to do the right thing by her as much as it tears us both apart.

[eva247]

Originally Posted by samanthac

You need a Rottweiler experienced trainer NOW. Call your Rottweiler parent club and ask for suggestions on how to find a Rottweiler expereinced trainer.

http://www.therottweilerclub.co.uk/
http://www.laser-rotts.co.uk/HTML/aboutfrm.htm

They may also be able to lead you to local breeders who could suggest a Rottweiler expereinced trainer.

Samantha, thanks. I will be straight on the case tomorrow morning. Unfortunately for me its 11pm here in the UK so no-one will be around but I promise, I will do this first thing tomorrow. I will not put my daughter at any form of risk.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by samanthac

You need a Rottweiler experienced trainer NOW. Call your Rottweiler parent club and ask for suggestions on how to find a Rottweiler expereinced trainer.

http://www.therottweilerclub.co.uk/
http://www.laser-rotts.co.uk/HTML/aboutfrm.htm

They may also be able to lead you to local breeders who could suggest a Rottweiler expereinced trainer.

In addition to the advice given above.... Where's your breeder while all of this is going on? Do you remain in contact with this "specialist breeder"???

You have had issues with this pup since you got him, ranging from biting and nipping, which may or may not be normal puppy behavior, as none of us have witnessed him in action - to fearful behavior, like the episode with the youths.... which is not happy normal puppy behavior - it's undersocialized and/or weak nerved behavior.

In the morning, PLEASE make sure your breeder is aware of what's going on. PLEASE contact people at the links above, and have someone knowledgable evaluate this pup. Have you started the Puppy socialisation classes yet?

Based on what you've described, the punishment you are giving him is merely revving him up and pissing him off, and therefore is not working, even when you get the prescribed squeek out of him.... When he goes after your daughter after you scruff shake him, this is because you're causing him to become more aggressive with the stimulus, and he is redirecting his aggression, which is a very common behavior - in dogs AND people. This is precisely why a forum like this is a good place for learning about things, but actually having a behaviorist/trainer present is necessary to learn proper technique, and watch good results vs. bad results.

If his toys are laying around, and he's not playing with them, it's likely because you are not attached to the other end of the toy.

I hardly think that a muzzle is necessary for a pup this age...if it were, this would HARDLY be a dog I'd home with children... I DO, however think that I'd spend the next day, or week either:
a.) getting a handle on this with someone IN PERSON, or
b.) return him to the breeder so he can be placed in an experienced home, while he's young, and these behaviors can be reversed more easily.

Be fair to your family, your dog, and yourself, and really be honest about your capabilities in dealing with him. There's no shame in admitting defeat - there's only shame in allowing a problem to go unsolved.

I wish you well.

[eva247]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

In addition to the advice given above.... Where's your breeder while all of this is going on? Do you remain in contact with this "specialist breeder"???

You have had issues with this pup since you got him, ranging from biting and nipping, which may or may not be normal puppy behavior, as none of us have witnessed him in action - to fearful behavior, like the episode with the youths.... which is not happy normal puppy behavior - it's undersocialized and/or weak nerved behavior.

In the morning, PLEASE make sure your breeder is aware of what's going on. PLEASE contact people at the links above, and have someone knowledgable evaluate this pup. Have you started the Puppy socialisation classes yet?

Based on what you've described, the punishment you are giving him is merely revving him up and pissing him off, and therefore is not working, even when you get the prescribed squeek out of him.... When he goes after your daughter after you scruff shake him, this is because you're causing him to become more aggressive with the stimulus, and he is redirecting his aggression, which is a very common behavior - in dogs AND people. This is precisely why a forum like this is a good place for learning about things, but actually having a behaviorist/trainer present is necessary to learn proper technique, and watch good results vs. bad results.

If his toys are laying around, and he's not playing with them, it's likely because you are not attached to the other end of the toy.

I hardly think that a muzzle is necessary for a pup this age...if it were, this would HARDLY be a dog I'd home with children... I DO, however think that I'd spend the next day, or week either:
a.) getting a handle on this with someone IN PERSON, or
b.) return him to the breeder so he can be placed in an experienced home, while he's young, and these behaviors can be reversed more easily.

Be fair to your family, your dog, and yourself, and really be honest about your capabilities in dealing with him. There's no shame in admitting defeat - there's only shame in allowing a problem to go unsolved.

I wish you well.

Hi poohbearsmom,

Here goes;

1. Yep, been TRYING to keep in contact with the breeder but shes either busy, suffering from vertigo so can't talk and will call me back. I told her my concerns a few weeks ago and she told me not to worry that this was all normal behaviour until he got his next set of teeth. Tried to call her today but shes not well and said she will call me back when she is better.

2. He's definitely not undersocialised, thats why I'm really worried. He probably more over socialised so it is more likely weak nerved behaviour.

3. Yep, he's started puppy socialisation/obedience classes.

4. You're right re his aggression behaviour. BUT I was advised to do this by many people/experts within this forum (if you see many of my other posts). It was advised to me as purely no and a redirection or another command was not working.

5. To be quite honest, I don;t feel like I have much faith in the breeder now as she isn't necessarily being very helpful. If I brought him back to her, how do I know that she has put Kane into a good home or another one with children.

I understand and appreciate everything you are saying and I know there is no shame in admitting defeat, I do know that I have the capability to deal with him BUT am I putting my daughter at risk in the process? At the moment, in a way I have the upper hand with regards to the fact that he is a pup, so young and physically not stronger then me, I've identified and accepted this problem NOW and I hope it can be rectified for the best which is what I intend to do first.

No-one wants to lose someone they love in any way, to lose him now and give up just seems so unfair. To not know where he'd be sent to and know for sure that he'd be looked after properly seems so unfair. To not come down the stairs in the morning and have his little stub wagging 100mph and trying to lick me to death seems so unfair. To not have him laying at my feet or literally sitting on my feet seems so unfair. Oh I could go on forever - I know what you're saying and I can;t help my emotions, to lose him would be like losing the child that I could never have.

I am going to find a behaviourist that specialises in rotties and see how we go from there. Don't get me wrong, if I can't do anything with Kane then yes, I will admit defeat but I can't give up on him just yet. Please understand that.

Eva

[Karlan]

Until you can get help I would keep a leash on him at all times when he is out of his create.

[Dans2Rotts]

Sorry to here about your issues, and i wouldnt put much faith in the breeder as well since she is putting this situation off. About the muzle thing if he bit you hard enough to draw blood id say try it to be on the safe side id hate for him to get your daughter as badly, but im not by far the most experienced to offer advise on this issue. But if ya check out a Rott familiar trainer or behavurist and decide ya cant keep him and your breeder wont take him back (wich the few breeders ive dealt with begged for me to bring them back if i decided they wouldnt work out, I mainly have had all rescues and 1 pet store bought dog at witch im getting basted on the breeding forrums for ) id look into Rott/rescue. Placing him there and finding another with better temperment (definately not from the same beeder). Again look into a more experienced person than me about this breed and muzle maybe out of the question.
Good Luck on whatever you decide