Feeling like a complete failure - please help (very long)

[Canadianrotti]

The above sounds like what the gentle leader and similar halter style trainers try to reproduce. The theory is to replicate the same movements the mother will do to correct the young pup by using gentle but firm force to push the pups nose downward. I suppose that by you doing this it will tell the dog that you are in charge. And because it does not require much force, you are not trying to overpower your dog physically, you are doing it through telling your dog you are in control.
All I can tell you is that we have used a Gentle Leader and it has worked wonders in teaching our young pup who is boss.

[RottieGirl86]

If you have this much trouble at 14 weeks, what is it going to be like at 16 months?

The puppy you have now is indicative of the dog you will have. If you cannot control puppy bites, what will be different in 1 year but for your dog weighing more?

IMHO, (and I am by no means an expert), it sounds like he doesn't have bite inhabition - the 'playful' bites to daughter was him working his way up the chain. His reaction to the scuffing shows he doesn't see you as alpha - as it sounds like he did not back down.

I don't see this as a tempermant issue but a training issue, mainly training yourself and your family on how this dog should be treated. Get him on NILF if he isn't already. If you can't do it, get him rehomed to someone who can, get an older dog already trained.


The best book I ever read was: 'The Art of Raising a Puppy' by the Monks of New Sket. I realized I was misreading a lot of the signals my dog was sending and that I may have been sending conflicting ones back.

Did you ( not ex, or whomever) raise the previous Rott you had? Puppy training is a completely different bag of tricks.

Never use force if you can't back it up. I know if I ever have to use force on Max, one of us ( or both) is ending up in a hospital. I have to out think him. This means looking at the situation and seeing what I'm doing ( signals, body language) seeing if I have been clear. Then, reinforcing the desired behavior.

Best of luck,

[jasygirl]

I think that with work you can get him past this stage. It will probably be hard and with a child in the home, you might not be able to work through it. But, in my un-expert opinion, I think you have the desire and ability to work through it.
Mia was a horrid, horrid puppy. When I'd try to correct her she'd freak, much like Kane did. She was always nipping at my legs and hands. I got her into training and it worked wonders. She's now over 2 years and hasn't nipped in a very, very long time. Mia does sound different in that she is a very weak nerved dog. Also, she's not as powerful as your boy will be--she's only 45 pounds (a mutt).
I hope it works out for you.

[Lookie]

Hey Eva! Was looking for different (more) tricks to teach Harley, and came across the info below. I thought of you, as it deals with EXACTLY what you are going through! It's long, but it's worth the read. I totally believe you can work thru this! Muzzle puppy around your daughter so she doesn't get hurt, and work with puppy when she's not around (in school), and I bet you have it conquered in short time. CONSISTENCY!!! :)

Good luck Chickie - I know you can do it!

Q: My Dalmatian puppy is almost nine weeks old. I got him when he was five weeks. He's playful and fun but I can't get him to stop biting me. That seems to be the only way he likes to play anymore — rough! I've been telling him No!, holding his mouth shut while saying “No bite!” and even shoving my hand back in his mouth like a trainer told me to do. Nothing seems to work. In fact, he thinks I'm playing a game with him and gets more excited the more I try to stop him. Sometimes he walks right up and attacks me! What can I do? Is he vicious?

A: No, he's not vicious, he's just being a normal, rambunctious, and sometimes obnoxious puppy. To get control of your pup's biting, it helps to understand why puppies bite in the first place.

Biting and mouthing are normal behaviors for puppies. Dogs don't have hands so they investigate objects and their environment with their mouths. To a curious puppy, everything about this big world is brand new and exciting. He learns as he goes along. You can almost hear his thought processes as he discovers something he's never seen before: "Hmmm...what's this? [chomping on it] Something to eat? No? [tossing it around] Can I play with it? Maybe. Can I make it squeak?"

Playing is also a normal learning behavior for puppies, especially play-fighting. Play-fighting with littermates and other animals develops reflexes, coordination and physical skill. It also helps them develop social skills and teaches them how to interact positively within their canine society, their "pack." And it's great fun for them. Sometimes their fighting and "attacks" on us appear frighteningly fierce but to them, it's just a game. Much like a group of kids playing make-believe games and pretending to be grown-ups, puppies have their own games and pretend to be "grown-ups," too!

A dog's ability to control the force of his biting is called "bite inhibition." It's a critically important skill that every puppy needs to learn, the earlier the better. At first, they don't know their own strength nor how sharp their little teeth really are. Puppies learn to control the force of their biting from the reactions of their mothers and littermates during play and especially play-fighting.

We can teach puppies about bite inhibition, too, but some of the methods most often recommended aren't effective. Mother dogs' methods, however, are very effective, often more so than ours. I believe this is because they're speaking to their pups in the language they understand best -- dog language! A baby puppy is much too busy learning how to be a dog to take time to understand our human words and ways. That takes time and maturity. Puppies respond to dog language in a very powerful, instinctive way. We can take advantage of that by copying a mother dog's actions and using them for ourselves.

The idea of using mother dog's natural training techniques isn't new. Respected trainers like Carol Lea Benjamin have been using them for years. To understand these methods, let's take a look at a typical mother dog disciplining her brood. We'll use my Heather (Chow) and her four rowdy puppies as an example.

When a playful puppy bites Heather hard enough to hurt, she squeals in shocked indignation. The puppy, surprised at her reaction, usually hesitates a moment, unsure of himself, then tries to bite again. Heather yelps even louder this time and whirls on the puppy, growling, showing her teeth and scowling at him fiercely. Then she turns her back on him and storms away, completely ignoring him and any further attempts to get her to play. A smart puppy picks up her clear message quickly: "if you can't play nice, I won't play with you at all!"

If the puppy persists or doesn't take the hint, Heather doesn't fool around. With a menacing growl and using her teeth, she grabs him by the scruff of his neck and gives him a shake. If he sasses back, she gives him another little shake, tougher this time. She doesn't let go of the pup till he's acknowledged her authority (in dog language) by relaxing his body, laying his ears back and keeping still for a moment. Heather disciplines especially obnoxious puppies by knocking them over with her paw and pinning them to the ground, growling angrily and pinching them with her teeth. The puppies shriek but they're not really hurt. She doesn't let them up again untill they relax and lie still. After the correction, the puppy shakes his fur back into place and goes off in search of a playmate with a better sense of humor.

We don't have to growl at our puppies or shake them with our teeth, but we can modify Heather's technique for ourselves. The next time your puppy bites you, scream "OW!" in a high-pitched voice. Exaggerate a little. Then refuse to play with him or pay attention to him for a few minutes. If he doesn't get the message, give him a little scruff shake and scold him in a low-toned, threatening voice. You can exaggerate a little on that, too! Sound meaner than you really are. For puppies that just won't quit or seem to get wilder with every correction, flip them over on their backs, scold them in that same low, scary voice (growling) and gently but firmly, hold them in that position until they stop struggling.

We sometimes give puppies the wrong message about biting by some of the games we play with them. Wrestling and tug of war can encourage a puppy to bite and make it hard for him to distinguish when it's okay to use his teeth and when it's not. To make it easier for your puppy to learn good manners, it's a good idea to avoid these games.

Puppies seem to learn a great deal about bite inhibition and authority between five and eight weeks of age through play with their mothers and littermates. This is an especially good reason not to buy very young puppies. Puppies that were acquired earlier need to be taught these important things by their owners. They might require a little more intense use of Heather's methods than puppies that stayed with their litters longer. Puppies that receive little or no training in bite inhibition, either from their mothers or their people, may grow up to develop behavior problems.

I noticed that Heather picked out certain puppies for a little "extra" correction two or three times a day. She'd roll them over, pin them down for no apparent reason, growling at them if they didn't lie quietly. I noticed, too, that the puppies she chose were the most outgoing and dominant in the litter. She gave them regular reminders of her authority and the behavior she expected from them. I've found that using her technique myself works very well on puppies that've become too big for their britches!

Even with their mothers, puppies act a lot like kids -- they're always testing and pushing their limits. They have angel days and devil days. With patience, persistence and a few hints from your puppy's mother, you'll be able to tip the balance toward the angel's side!

[Jango]

Not to be difficult but this sounds like the alpha roll to me. I have been told by several members/breeders not to do this. One, rotties are not a real submissive breed, two how in the heck are you going to try and alpha roll an adult rottie if that is the only correction you use? I did this a couple times with Jango and if i wasn't as strong or fast as I am, I would be missing parts of my face. I do not alpha roll Jango.(learned my lesson!!!!) Judi W's method and the shake method worked better for me. The guiding the head to the ground method sounds like a good option as well. Jango gets a wild hair once in awhile and I use the theses methods to calm him down.

[Lookie]

It actually states three options to stop the behavior, hopefully a very consistent first option would work with Kane.

[lblax]

ive followed most of your threads you have thought this puppy to be aggressive since day one you have had repeated questions on puppy biting and other behaviors you have been given sound advice time and time again and you havent either pursued or was unable to complete it .. you have a 14 week old puppy that is virtually not capable of true aggression it has the very basic of problems if you rehome this dog now he will more in likely grow up to be a perfectly normal dog but if you keep him and if he has you buffaloed at 14 weeks by the time he is a year or so you will certainly putting him to sleep. do both of you a favor and find him a home this may seem harsh but its time to cut the crap and do whats right for the dog

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by lblax

ive followed most of your threads you have thought this puppy to be aggressive since day one you have had repeated questions on puppy biting and other behaviors you have been given sound advice time and time again and you havent either pursued or was unable to complete it .. you have a 14 week old puppy that is virtually not capable of true aggression it has the very basic of problems if you rehome this dog now he will more in likely grow up to be a perfectly normal dog but if you keep him and if he has you buffaloed at 14 weeks by the time he is a year or so you will certainly putting him to sleep. do both of you a favor and find him a home this may seem harsh but its time to cut the crap and do whats right for the dog

I tend to agree with you on this one, lblax.
In addition, this should be a fine warning to folks to realize that it's all fine and good when the breeder answers the phone... when they want to SELL puppies.... but where's the follow through on this?
Choose your breeders wisely.
All of the issues that Eva has dealt with, should have been brought up to her breeder FIRST.... "normal" puppy behavior? maybe.. maybe not... it's really difficult to tell, since none of us have been witness to ANY of the problems Eva has dealt with - OR - the way she's dealt with them.
This is a perfect example of WHY a forum like this is a terrific EDUCATIONAL SOURCE, but it's NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SEEKING HELP PROFESSIONALLY, AND PERSONALLY.
Even the most experienced trainers seek the assistance of others to "get with the program" and expand their true knowledge.

Unless Eva has truly sought the assistance of a qualified behaviorist today, that has seen her "in action" with the pup, and evaluated BOTH of them thoroughly, I have to agree with lblax, that this is a one way trip to the toilet for this dog. He's young enough now, for an experienced person to salvage him, IF he's not the product of crappy breeding, and completely off kilter.

My 2 cents. Have fun with the rest of this thread.
Good luck, Eva.

[Greg_1111]

It's obvious that you are really frustrated, and you want things to improve. You also sound very committed. First thing is, don't panic. You will make it happen, but it takes time. It's the people that don't care that end up with the real problems. I think the best thing that you can do at this point is to have a behaviourist come to your home and evaluate your pup, but also evaluate your methods. Don't just get one opinion, get a couple. I had some similar problems early on due to my lack of knowledge. The two visits I had opened my eyes to a lot of things. I was left with a stack of articles on basic things such as NILF, boot camp which are basically some excellent guidlines to follow when things aren't working.

[samanthac]

Originally Posted by Jango

Not to be difficult but this sounds like the alpha roll to me.

Yes, and to quote myself ( )

"...absolutely DO NOT EVER alpha roll (force onto back) any dog. That is a very antiquated and very dangerous practice that might just get your face ripped off. And frankly, you would deserve it. NEVER force your dog to roll over. You might succeed as a puppy, but try it as an adult and you may find yourself on a trip to the emergency room."

You can make it quite clear on their terms without doing something as reckless and dangerous.

[Judi W]

Well, just a bit of disagreement. Few dogs are truly stupid. Most know very well who they can mess with and who they absolutely should not!

[Squeaky2004]

I have actually watched Squeak's Dam and her in the backyard. I use a few techniques that the dam does. Like (very gently) grabbing the muzzle (of course not in between my teeth) lol, and holding her very gently until she stops struggling. Normally this will stop the biting. If she does not stop, I will look at her growl and show my teeth and that is usually the end of that nonsense. Of course she gets excited sometimes so some of this has to be repeated but it does not last long. She knows who is top dog lol

[anni's.mom]

didn't read all the posts to this thread, but my gut reaction is, REHOME kane before you have to have him put to sleep. he knows he runs the show at your house, and sombody is going to grt hurt BAD.

[brnlow]

Originally Posted by samanthac

"...NEVER force your dog to roll over. You might succeed as a puppy, but try it as an adult and you may find yourself on a trip to the emergency room."

Any dog that tries to put you in the emergency room doesn't respect you as his rightful master. I have alpha rolled my dogs daily in our play - (not Zooey she is too old and arthritic to tussle anymore but got rolled for 8 or 9 years). I have never used it as a training tool per se, but it does let them know I will end (win) every game they choose to start when I want. If your dog truly knows he is at the bottom of the family hierarchy he won't care who rolls his butt. On the other hand, I would never play/wrestle with anyone else's dog the way I do my own because I don't expect them to see me as their boss and won't allow anyone outside the household to play with my dogs the way I do.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by brnlow

Any dog that tries to put you in the emergency room doesn't respect you as his rightful master. I have alpha rolled my dogs daily in our play - (not Zooey she is too old and arthritic to tussle anymore but got rolled for 8 or 9 years). I have never used it as a training tool per se, but it does let them know I will end (win) every game they choose to start when I want. If your dog truly knows he is at the bottom of the family hierarchy he won't care who rolls his butt. .

well considering an alpha roll puts the dog in a live die situation i would say you have a really submissive dog..... and you are lucky an attack from a dog getting a alpha roll has nothing to do with disrespect but everything to do with survival .. your dog does not have to be at the bottom of the pack they need to respect the leader and therefore they also respect the others that are under the leaders protection