Advice needed- my Poodle vs. my Rottie???

[mymeekrotti]

First I hope this is posted in the right spot.

Second my eyes are crossing from searching threads for advice on a situation I see developing here and I can't really find the answer, so advice-please.

Here is the history, and I'm sorry its so long.
I have an 11 year 10lb male poodle. I raised him from a 10 week old pup, took him through surgeries, he slept in my bed, (until my husband came along :)) I'm sure he thinks of me as his, if dogs are capable of thinking that way.

Some of you may know about 4 weeks a go I adopted an 18 month old girl rottie. Now this is the twist on my question-Meeka, the rottie, hasn't really shown signs of dominance. We have her on what I consider a mild NILIF program, I call it mild because she has to work for basically every thing she gets, but not EVERYTHING. She is also learning obedience, and is well socialized. She is very very mild tempered.

The problem is last night myself and both dogs were on the floor getting pats and luvs, as normal, when my poodle freaked out on Meeka. She was on her back getting belly rubs :) and he tried to jump over me and on top of her growling. She didn't fight back at all and I was right there so I grabbed him and got in his face to let him know that was NOT ACCEPTABLE. Then I sent him to his bed, Meeka went to her bed. In four weeks I have only had to really get after her one time, but if I raise my voice she does not like itto say the least and usually heads straight to her crate. I know Little Man, the poodle, has been irritated with her so I feel like maybe this is an escalting problem I want to nip in the bud.

I don't know if I would call it jealousy or dominance issues, but I lean towards dominance and I'm not sure how to handle a poodle that wants to take on a rottie. Did I do the right thing??? What can I do to prevent this from getting worse? Any and all advice is welcome, and needed.
thanks everyone for putting up with this long post. :o

[jas'smom]

I am sure someone more experienced than I will jump in here, but I have the same issues with 2 of my dogs. A very dominant female cattle dog and a pissy terrier. Bottom line I think you did the right thing explaining to your pup that the behavior was not acceptable. Your older dog is trying to establish his dominance in the relationship with your new rottie girl. This could lead to big trouble should your rottie decide at some point to challange the smaller dog. I would avoid situations where you have them both on the floor petting etc. I try to give both my cattle dog and the troublesome terrier time with me, but seperate time. Yes they go on walks together, but I do not allow them to crowd around me. All toys are put away unless I bring them out and then I play with the dogs individually, the toys are then put back. It takes a bit of work but my household has quieted down a great deal since I instituted this. Bottom line your older dog needs to learn that you are in charge not him and that you will make decisions for them both:)

[Judi W]

Well, too often people think because a dog is little it can be indulged and it grows up spoiled. If this has been the case, you need to put that poodle on a NILF program and just because he is 10 doesn't mean he can't be given some obedience training. When you see him getting an attitude, he should be corrected. Let him know that he is not allowed to act in a hostile manner. Many Rottweilers are quite tolerant of insults from small dogs, but that doesn't mean they will take it forever. I would caution that when you correct him, take care that the bitch does not want to join in and help you. She sounds like a wonderful girl.

[Canadianrotti]

I feel your pain, I am going through the same thing with my now 4 1/2 month old rotti (Raelin)and our 9 year old rotti/lab (Roan). Roan has been with my wife since she rescued him 8 years ago, so their relationship is well established. Raelin is almost constantly after Roan to play, nipping him in the jowles and biting his tail. We first thought that they would sort out who is the top dog themselves, but were advised otherwise by the people we are going to for training. For the past 6-8 weeks we have been saying "AHHH" to get Raelin to leave Roan alone. We do let them play when HE wants to which is indicated by his tail high in the air and his nose on the ground, you can also tell by the pitch of his groul (he is very talkative).
There have been situations where Roan is at falt and he needs to know that there are rules for him as well. It is OK to let them play and have their fun, but if one of them gets out of line or becomes to agressive it is up to us to tell them they have gone to far. :D

[K9-man]

Originally Posted by mymeekrotti

Then I sent him to his bed, Meeka went to her bed.

I would of put up the poodle then had a party with Meeka right there in same room – petting, praising, games and treats.

This was a display of possessive aggression. The poodle decided he no longer wanted to share his ‘possession’ (you) with your Rottie girl. So show Little Man that if he doesn’t share time, he gets no time from you.

And I agree, sounds like the poodle needs the NILIF more so than the rott.

[Luvs]

We sometimes have problems with our poodle Littlefoot. He is 14 and we frequently have to step in when he tries to be bossy to Keil. Keil is so easy going that he accepts anything Littlefoot does to him, but I have a feeling that as Keil gets older that will change, so we are trying to nip it in the bud now. I don't allow Littlefoot and Keil together unattended. I don't really worry about Littlefoot and Akasha since the only time they ever have any problems is at feeding time. That is only because Littlefoot thinks that he can sneak up to Akasha's bowl and steal some of her food. I stand next to her while she eats and don't let him near her bowl.

It always amazes me how the little guys think they can beat up the big guys. We have had 5 different Rotties in the 14 years that we have had Littlefoot and he ALWAYS tries to be dominant. My daughter calls it "Napolean Syndrome" :D :D

[mymeekrotti]

[quote=Judi W]Well, too often people think because a dog is little it can be indulged and it grows up spoiled. If this has been the case, you need to put that poodle on a NILF program and just because he is 10 doesn't mean he can't be given some obedience training.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone! :)

Now I'll reveal my bad dog mommy side, because my poodle is very spoiled. Boy wouldn't my husband throw a party is he heard me say that! He's always after me to not let Little Man get away with so much. ;) He's not a brat or anything he just often does more what he wants than what you want. Okay-that's kinda bratty :(.

I know he needs to learn some manners, but how do I go about teaching him obedience training? He sits, walks well on the leash, he knows a lot of other commands and will usually obey me, but not my husband as much. (thus the grumbling by my husband :)) Should I use treats or just praise to start him on NILIF? It's kind of hard to know what to make him work for as he doesn't really do much. Any more suggestions??

[mymeekrotti]

oh yeah one more SHORT thing-Meekas isn't really on NILIF strictly, but she has to sit stay before she goes outside the front door or gate, for her food, she has to do a trick, anything just something fun for a treat. No demanding attention, even though the nose under the arm is the cutest. :p So is that really NINILF or just teaching her who's boss? Do you think we are being overly zealous in establishing who's boss? Sorry I have so many questions.

[tugger5000]

I think your NILF protocol is fine.... I can't think of anything more than that. That's basically what we follow in our house (including no canines can just demand attention).

[Judi W]

With Mr. "a-little-bit-spoiled" I would get bossy with him a couple of times a day and then enforce it. In other words, tell him to go lie down in a certain place. If he doesn't hop to it, take him there and make him stay for 10 minutes or so. Different things like that will help convince him that he is not so very fancy after all.

[bcarlsen]

Little dogs are often little in body only and we have found that an adolescent Tibetan Spanial is just as difficult (albeit smaller) as some adolescent Rotties! In our house the same rules apply to both dogs. The Tibbie, unneutered at this time, still likes to press an issue now and then and finds, like Judy W said, that "he is not so fancy after all". The Rottie takes the hint and when Tibbie is in trouble she "hut twos" as quick as a wink. Little or big, dogs are dogs and need to know who is in charge...all the time. Personally I cannot stand bratty anything...kids, kitties or dogs. SOmetimes adults make that list too! Respect for authority is integral to success in any social situation. Respect is most effective if earned but even if given ceremonially (as in Rottie having manners with visitors or standing for the national anthem regardless of political feelings) it is still acceptable.

Let hubby participate in NILIF with poodle boy, no one is ever too old to learn, including Little Man. Check out some of the threads on early training and utilize some of the techniques. You'll be surprised at the turn around and at the peace that will reign in your home! BTW...make the rules apply to Rottie girl too...she may not exhibit a particular need for it but NILIF is good policy...(works for teenagers too!).

[mymeekrotti]

This forum is so great! Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.

Actually, we started making little man work hard today, it's too soon to see any results of course, but it hasn't been as traumatic as I thought it would be. For him or me :). There are actually a lot of things he will do, like sit stay before going outside, although you would all laugh your heads off at me trying to get a rottie and a poodle to sit-stay and get released while the door is open-I'm trying to let one out at a time, but when they've both got to pee, dogs aren't too patient ya know? :) :) They're just both there at the door wagging their tails and grinning at me, like "okay were ready." It's stuff like this that has my neighbors convinced I'm a nut case. :D Oh well people that keep a Dobi and shepherd mix in a kennel in the back yard for "protection" just don't get it.

Judi W- that is a good idea to use some time just for him. Even though he knows it already I'm thinking stay is going to be a big one to enforce.

bcarlson- I can see your point that both dogs get treated the same, but how does that help work out pack heirarchy? I know I'm the boss, but will they work it out from there? Oh and I don't have any teenagers, but it sounds like a good theory. :)

[Judi W]

I think what bcarlson is saying is that you enforce that you are in charge of both (not just the Rottweiler and the Poodle gets to make his own rules) and then you establish the rules for how they interact.

It is very unusual for a male to be hostile to a bitch regardless of age, breed or any other factors unless that male is either neurotic, insane or extremely spoiled. We're giving the Poodle the benefit of a doubt and saying "extremely spoiled" in which case the medicine is to unspoil him promptly. Having rules for the Rottweiler and none for the Poodle just goes further to convince the Poodle that he is exempt from constraint.

[bcarlsen]

Thank you Judy W! That is what I am saying.

As for pack hierarchy, I do allow them some space to work it out amongst themselves. However, manners are manners. Tibbie boy (at 10 lbs) loves to be big dog and he'll take the Rottie's bone (she is 80lbs...dogs are not respecter of body size so much as attitude!) and has even gone so far as to steal her dinner. I provide a crate for bone time and if the Rottie gives up her bone, well then, must be she didn't want it bad enough. Usually she only gives up high value items when she has tired of them. Now, when Tibbie gets bossy with dinner time, he is scolded and sent to time out in his open crate. He is not allowed to leave his crate until other dog has finished and then, on MY "OK!" he can rejoin the feasting. I do seperate the bowls at feeding time but he sometimes gets too big for his britches. He seems to have some authority over the Rottie and so I recognize it by giving him first treats, first through the door after me etc....BUT ONLY if he is polite. The other day he thought that he could just barge into the house from the garage after having his feet wiped off (we had mud). I immediately put Rottie into Sit/Stay and called Tibbie back. I put him into sit/stay with the "ahh-ahh-ahh" if he even thought about moving and allowed Rottie to enter house first. Then, "I" stepped through door and made him wait another 15 seconds before I gave the release word, "OK". He entered very sedate, chagrined and chastened. By the time he hit the living room, Rottie girl was waiting to play and all was well once again. As a side note, Rottie is usually very careful in playing with 10lb dog. Occasionaly she forgets herself and if Tibbie doesn't correct her oversight, I do. (ex. Ok, thats enough, play time over; go lay down.) They play under supervision only.

The point of this example is to show that "I" dictate what is mannerly, not Tibbie or Rottie for that matter. We all know that he bosses around the Rottie and if she allows it, so will I, but I will not allow him to decide on what terms he gets to be boss. Snapping, outright bullying, charging, growling (not just play growling...you know the difference), disobedience to MY commands are not acceptable. Nip the smaller infractions in the bud and you won't likely have to deal with major ones.

I do not necessarily make it a point to spend time with the dogs individually. However, upon thinking about it, I do do so from time to time. I have had no problems with "jealousy" or any dog determining that sharing me is a hardship. We have a peaceful household and even kittie knows her boundaries.

Thanks for the opportunity to share. As for teenagers they are a lot like todlers only bigger and somewhat more determined. Well trained kids, like well trained dogs are a joy and a source of pride.

[mymeekrotti]

Thanks again guys!
What you described is pretty much how wer'e making things work around here. My little guy is a catching on fast, but I think my husband is going to have to work harder than me to get his respect. They have already had a couple of little spats when my husband makes my poodle work, and reenforces it. I'm sure they'll work it out-theyr'e both good boys at heart. :D

As for my rottie girl, she continues to be her mild self. But I do see her personality really coming out-it's like really getting to know someone you know is going to one of the best friends you ever had. :p They haven't had any more squabbles since that first one, but I sure appreciate the advice on how to keep things peaceful-the best medicine is prevention.

Thanks again-and any other words of advice/encouragement are always welcome on any subject. :) :)
katie