Fearful Behavior

[Titan's Mom]

I got Titan when he was 8 wks old, he was fine, after about 2 weeks he started growling at everyone, us included, but we all correct him right away..I took him to puppy class, obiendence, and he just finished pre agility (for confidence). All of the trainers say he is fearful, I did socialize him the best I could. He knows all of his commands and does listen and do them. The problem is when someone comes in my house or he is out for a walk he barks very mean at them and is right up by them doing this. I correct him and tell the person do not make eye contact just pretend he is not there. It is very scarey for them I understand. He does not do this to family that he knows. He does listen to all his commands but when he does this he does not until about 5 minutes he just stops.
I have a new trainer coming to my house in 4 days to evaluate him for another opinion. I love him so much I am trying everything I can to correct this. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

[spidey]

First of all, how old is he? If he's young he's likely going through a fear period. Be patient, keep socializing, but keep it at a level he's comfortable with.

I highly recommend classical conditioning. Forget about correcting him, that's just teaching him that strangers ARE something he should fear (strangers show up, he's scared and barks, and you correct him - the connection he makes is that strangers make you mad at him). Instead, find an extra-special treat that he loves (bacon, grilled chicken, steak), and ONLY feed him that treat when strangers are around. Do not worry about thinking you're rewarding him for fearful behaviour, what you're doing is getting him to associate strangers with that especially yummy treat. Go somewhere like a park where there are people but also lots of room - stay as far away from strangers as you need to for him to be comfortable, and every time you see a stranger, feed him. Gradually get closer, and keep feeding treats. Go very slowly, do not overdo it and remember that you're trying to make him think that strangers = good things for him, you're not trying to put a bandaid on the fear by stopping the barking. The barking isn't the problem, the fear is the problem. Good luck.

[Judi W]

Give everyone you meet a cheerful "hello, how are you doing" before he gets all excited. I don't know why you would get "right up next to them". You should angle your direction so that you are not in a frontal approach, keep talking in a friendly fashion and go around them at whatever distance it takes to relieve his stress. It is not their job to train your dog, nor avoid eye contact or any of that. You must distract, change direction and give a message that the person is a friend before the dog is involved. It is quite understandable that someone would be keeping an eye on a dog that is acting like it wants to tear a hole in them. Yes, it is fear which is why you must be sure to always give your happy hello's as that gives a message to the dog. You must be proactive at all times, but avoid increasing his fear by pushing him towards that when scares him. That just throws him into more defense. You might need to cross the street for a while. Move at an angle (do not reverse your direction as that looks like fleeing to the dog). This relieves pressure on the dog and certainly makes it better for the other people.

When people come to your home, try to greet them outside and walk in with them. Have the dog with you and on a leash and again use the happy talk (like you are giving a party). Focus on being friendly to the guest, not on the dog other than a brief correction if needed. Use your commands to give him something other than the people to worry about and it gives him an acceptable behavior to do.

[Titan's Mom]

Originally Posted by spidey

First of all, how old is he? If he's young he's likely going through a fear period. Be patient, keep socializing, but keep it at a level he's comfortable with.

I highly recommend classical conditioning. Forget about correcting him, that's just teaching him that strangers ARE something he should fear (strangers show up, he's scared and barks, and you correct him - the connection he makes is that strangers make you mad at him). Instead, find an extra-special treat that he loves (bacon, grilled chicken, steak), and ONLY feed him that treat when strangers are around. Do not worry about thinking you're rewarding him for fearful behaviour, what you're doing is getting him to associate strangers with that especially yummy treat. Go somewhere like a park where there are people but also lots of room - stay as far away from strangers as you need to for him to be comfortable, and every time you see a stranger, feed him. Gradually get closer, and keep feeding treats. Go very slowly, do not overdo it and remember that you're trying to make him think that strangers = good things for him, you're not trying to put a bandaid on the fear by stopping the barking. The barking isn't the problem, the fear is the problem. Good luck.

Thank you for getting back to me. Titan is now 7 months old and very large, he weighs about 85 lbs. He is not my first Rottie, but the first with this problem. I was taking him to a park and doing just what you said but when the weather changed I stopped. I am going to start up again. He is also very close to me, I can't go anywhere in the house that he isn't with me, the trainer called him my velcro dog. Thanks again

[Titan's Mom]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Give everyone you meet a cheerful "hello, how are you doing" before he gets all excited. I don't know why you would get "right up next to them". You should angle your direction so that you are not in a frontal approach, keep talking in a friendly fashion and go around them at whatever distance it takes to relieve his stress. It is not their job to train your dog, nor avoid eye contact or any of that. You must distract, change direction and give a message that the person is a friend before the dog is involved. It is quite understandable that someone would be keeping an eye on a dog that is acting like it wants to tear a hole in them. Yes, it is fear which is why you must be sure to always give your happy hello's as that gives a message to the dog. You must be proactive at all times, but avoid increasing his fear by pushing him towards that when scares him. That just throws him into more defense. You might need to cross the street for a while. Move at an angle (do not reverse your direction as that looks like fleeing to the dog). This relieves pressure on the dog and certainly makes it better for the other people.

When people come to your home, try to greet them outside and walk in with them. Have the dog with you and on a leash and again use the happy talk (like you are giving a party). Focus on being friendly to the guest, not on the dog other than a brief correction if needed. Use your commands to give him something other than the people to worry about and it gives him an acceptable behavior to do.

Thank you for all your suggestions, I will definately use them. I was not clear about "right up by people", that is in my house, when walking I stay far enough away. Also, Titan seems to be dog aggressive, barking and lunging, I never get close to them due to his nature, even though he has lived with a pug,shar pei and 2 cats all of whom is is great with. I did forget to mention Titan is 7 months old and weighs about 85 lbs.

[papa bear's mom]

Hi Titan's Mom
I am no expert in Rottweilers, as I just adopted my first, Papa Bear, last September. However, I have the exact same problem you do! Spidey is definitely right about doing the classical conditioning. (Check out these books: Dogs are From Neptune by Jean Donaldson, Feisty Fido by Patricia McConnell) It has been working well for us to do as Spidey suggested and feeding Papa high quality treats/food when we are out on a walk or at a public place observing people from a distance, etc. He is a barker/lunger, and we have gotten that to calm down a lot by feeding him and distracting him. We also decide to move away (Like Judi said) if I see a loose dog up ahead of us on our walk. Also, I have found that saying hello in a cheerful voice works as well as even singing Zippeedodah to Papa. He freaking loves that - go figure. But if my singing works, then who cares what an idiot I look/sound like? I just want him to be comfortable around people/strangers. He was found as a stray and we have no idea what happened to the guy. He is two years old right now. You can help him through this and mold him into a good-natured, well-behaved dog - it just takes lots of time and patience. Keep working with him and take him everywhere you can to socialize him. At your dog's age, I think that is a fear period, but I am not quite sure on the exact timing of it. Good luck. I hope this helps. ;)

[papa bear's mom]

One more thing I forgot to mention - we had our dog evaluated by a behaviorist and she said it's fear aggression. We also have two other trainers that help us from time to time with ideas and classes. Just keep working on it - Papa has really calmed down since we've had him now for six months. He is learning to trust us and new people in the house and our judgment when it comes to meeting new people, that if we say the person is okay, then they must be okay. Good luck :D

[Brooke&Ryan]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Give everyone you meet a cheerful "hello, how are you doing" before he gets all excited.

I used to feel like such a dork doing this but it REALLY does work like a charm! The garbage men would give me odd looks when I would greet them so friendly. Like, "what the heck is wrong with this lady??" But it worked well for Julius.

Julius was quite the fearful dog also. Although he did not growl he would duck whenever someone tried to pet him. My only advice is just to get out there with yummy treats in your pocket & experience everything that's going on.

Good luck!

:)
Brooke

[Titan's Mom]

Thanks to everyone who has given me suggestions for Titan, believe me I need them. I have to try not to get frustrated with him, although sometimes honestly I do. All of the trainers have told me he is very smart, I guess he is just bullheaded, well we are going to work on that.
Tomorrow night the new trainer is coming to my house to evaluate him, I'll let you know what happens.
Thanks again

[Titan's Mom]

The newest update on Titan, the new trainer came last night. He is tougher than my other place I took him. Titan never wore a choker collar, he wants him to wear one, with a heavy duty show lace attached so I can make him sit stay at the door and not go there first. Also he does not initiate play I do and just a little at a time. He has to do something for me before I do, like eat,go out etc. I don't walk over him, he has to move, I have to practice sit stay he has to stay for 3 minutes before 2 weeks when he comes back. The trainer does not think he is far off just needs work knowing we are the boss not him. He was very good when the trainer came in only a little barking not like usual, I sometimes wonder if they know who people are. Like I said Titan knows all his commands but in the last week he seems to be reverting back, like when I say drop it he takes off away from me. He is in for a surprise.

[eva247]

Hi,
I am no expert at all as I have just had my first ever rottie (Kane) who is 9 weeks old for 2 weeks but he is similar when we go out.
As he has not been fully vaccinated yet I have to carry him but I have noticed big time that he is fine with other animals coming near me/him but he hates other humans, more so men. Whenever anyone approaches him he pushes himself back into my chest, bares his teeth and then growls at them, one guy he ended up biting (but in fairness this was the guys fault as I told him not to swoop down on him and he didn't listen!).
I don't know if this is a good thing to do but I find that whenever he does this, I touch the persons hand, shake it and then just hold their hand for a few seconds and he starts sniffing their hand and licks it, I then give them a treat to give him and he is then fine. However, he does not have this problem around kids.
I have a trainer who feels that Kane is quite a submissive character and very scared as if anyone comes into my house, he runs in between my legs and stays there until I do the above with them. When my trainer came around the house, Kane did this and I spoke to him in the normal puppy tone and stroked him. The first thing my trainer said was that this is the wrong thing to do - if I stroke him and talk to him when he does this behaviour, I am in effect praising him for being scared and reassuring him that there is something to be scared of so he will continue to do this. Now what I do is when anyone comes round, I give them a handful of treats and tell them to just through it on the floor and ignore him. Whilst he's getting busy with the treats and trying to find them, me and my guests just get on with it and ignore him and when he's ready and finished with his treats he just comes over to them and starts sniffing them and he is fine. They just need to learn that life goes on around them!
Also, socialisation - what I find is sometimes you can do the wrong thing here which can become so detrimental into the way your rottie will become as a character. I've noticed that some of the people I know only walk the dog around the block or in the same place/field. This will cause the rottie to become territorial as he/she grows older. In effect the rottie will see his/her den and the route around the block as his/her territory to protect and will 'growl, etc' at anyone/animal that he/she is not used to seeing during his walk. Example-my daughters teacher has a rottie bitch who is 2 and has always taken her to the same field for her run, everytime her rottie sees a dog/cat/etc which she has not seen in 'her' field before, she hurtles over to them growls and then pee's where they are standing - luckily so far she hasn't come across another rottie. She also never taught her pup from a young age not to jump up at people or run into people for a cuddle (she is 8 stone), her husband came home from work one day and the pup obviously very excited run to jump on him and ended up shattering his whole knee, he now has to walk with the assistance of crutches for the next year!
Since day 1 with my little pup (and believe me I know it is just really early days), I take him everywhere by car which is just a 10-30 minute journey, I go to the local Tesco supermarket and just stand outside so he can see different types of people (old, young, black, white, asian, small, tall, etc..), to the train station, to the local schools, the fire station, the police station. This I have been told by my trainer is a very good socialisation technique from such a young pup age. It all boils down to the frightened stage and how you deal with it from an early age. If your pup only saw females and not many males he may become aggressive towards them, if he/she only encountered white people the pup could become aggressive/scared towards other cultural beings (I am lucky here as I am white hispanic, my boyfriend is black and my daughter, obviously mixed race!) but you get the idea!
Also, I get him to meet the postman (very important!). A friend of mine had a rottie and everytime the postman delivered the mail the rottie obviously barked the house down and the postman would throw the mail through the letterbox and run off, my friend never socialised her pup properly so guess what happened - one day she is taking her rottie for a walk, rottie sees postman in uniform, rottie thinks excellent game I bark at postman he runs off and I chase but I'm normally stuck in the house and can't get him, not now I'm not!!! so he runs over to the postman and bites him on the foot (not bad), Royal Mail say they will never deliver post to her house again and she has to pick it up from the sorting office!
Sorry for going on a bit but I hope any of the above helps!!!!!
Also, if anyone has a problem with their pup and mouthing/biting I have found an excellent deterrent! A plastic bottle with some coins in it, everytime the pup tries to bite/mouth you, shake the bottle of coins and stick something else in the pups mouth to interrupt the behaviour and believe me, within 1-2 days the pup gets the message and he never gets used to the sound of the bottle! Now, whenever Kane gets excited and tries to mouth me I just pick up the bottle, he takes one look at it and starts licking me instead!
Another tip, for those of you who don't already do it! I have found that rotties need a lot of mental stimulation so I took 3 of his squeaky toys and cut them in half, every morning when I go off to work I put his breakfast (dried food) in one of them and put it in the crate, he is so busy working out how to get his breakfast out of it he doesn't even notice that I have gone and when I come back around lunchtime he's fast asleep! I use the other toy to put a load of treats into it, it keeps him occupied for hours! and the other toy I use to put soaked food into it, that also keeps him busy and he finds it very rewarding and tiring!
Sorry, but one more tip here to - if your rottie is/becomes very boisterous or over-excited, check the intake of his/hers protein levels. The rottie breed become very boisterous if they have a high protein level as dogs cannot break down their protein like humans and the only way for them to release the protein intake is by running around alot, mouthing, over-exerting themselves, etc... So if your rottie starts behaviour like this check if you have been giving your rottie high amounts of protein (i.e. tripe sticks, etc) and also, the quality of the protein intake should be from meats rather then vegetables.
Once again, I hope that this all helps in some way!

[Judi W]

It sounds to me that your new trainer is determined that Titan learn some manners and that you become able to control him which is critical. Whether his aggression is triggered by fear or not, if you cannot control his behavior his life could end up being very short. Hurrah for the new trainer.

You mentioned returning to the dog park. I would urge you to stay away from any place where you cannot completely control the dog's behavior. Every single time he is able to engage in aggressive action, cements that as his tool of choice and first response.

Dogs do know when they are becoming older and bigger and better able to scare people. They are the original experts at reading body language and even though the person does not flee, they know that they have frightened them which reinforces their use of aggression for their own stress relief. Control, especially with as large and strong a dog as the Rottweiler is so important. This will not change his inherited weak nerves so do not depend upon it changing his character to where he will become a "hail fellow, well met" and can be left to his own choices, but it will make it possible for him to become safe when supervised.

[Squeaky2004]

Our pup was always barking and growling at my teddy bear, she has almost completely stopped that now that i started "talking to my teddy bear" lol. only wish he could talk back :D

[Titan's Mom]

Originally Posted by Judi W

It sounds to me that your new trainer is determined that Titan learn some manners and that you become able to control him which is critical. Whether his aggression is triggered by fear or not, if you cannot control his behavior his life could end up being very short. Hurrah for the new trainer.

You mentioned returning to the dog park. I would urge you to stay away from any place where you cannot completely control the dog's behavior. Every single time he is able to engage in aggressive action, cements that as his tool of choice and first response.

Dogs do know when they are becoming older and bigger and better able to scare people. They are the original experts at reading body language and even though the person does not flee, they know that they have frightened them which reinforces their use of aggression for their own stress relief. Control, especially with as large and strong a dog as the Rottweiler is so important. This will not change his inherited weak nerves so do not depend upon it changing his character to where he will become a "hail fellow, well met" and can be left to his own choices, but it will make it possible for him to become safe when supervised.

Thanks again Judi, I always enjoy reading your thoughts about my problem. Today was Titan's first day of his new life haha. We did not let him near the front door today, we practiced sit stays, he did pretty good. In the afternoon my husband, myself and Titan along with toys for the ride and water for Titan took a ride and went to a walking trail around a huge lake. At first when he got out he saw a person, barked alot. Then as we walked there wasn't alot of people around he did good. We praised him alot when he just looked, people probably thought there was something wrong with us, they were probably waiting for us to do cartwheels next. I was very proud of him and let him know. We will not make it too stressful for him, that's why we went there today, the weather is still chilly so it wasn't crowded. Tomorrow I'll pack him in the truck for a parking lot trip to Home Depot. Thanks again,

[Titan's Mom]

Originally Posted by eva247

Hi,
I am no expert at all as I have just had my first ever rottie (Kane) who is 9 weeks old for 2 weeks but he is similar when we go out.
As he has not been fully vaccinated yet I have to carry him but I have noticed big time that he is fine with other animals coming near me/him but he hates other humans, more so men. Whenever anyone approaches him he pushes himself back into my chest, bares his teeth and then growls at them, one guy he ended up biting (but in fairness this was the guys fault as I told him not to swoop down on him and he didn't listen!).
I don't know if this is a good thing to do but I find that whenever he does this, I touch the persons hand, shake it and then just hold their hand for a few seconds and he starts sniffing their hand and licks it, I then give them a treat to give him and he is then fine. However, he does not have this problem around kids.
I have a trainer who feels that Kane is quite a submissive character and very scared as if anyone comes into my house, he runs in between my legs and stays there until I do the above with them. When my trainer came around the house, Kane did this and I spoke to him in the normal puppy tone and stroked him. The first thing my trainer said was that this is the wrong thing to do - if I stroke him and talk to him when he does this behaviour, I am in effect praising him for being scared and reassuring him that there is something to be scared of so he will continue to do this. Now what I do is when anyone comes round, I give them a handful of treats and tell them to just through it on the floor and ignore him. Whilst he's getting busy with the treats and trying to find them, me and my guests just get on with it and ignore him and when he's ready and finished with his treats he just comes over to them and starts sniffing them and he is fine. They just need to learn that life goes on around them!
Also, socialisation - what I find is sometimes you can do the wrong thing here which can become so detrimental into the way your rottie will become as a character. I've noticed that some of the people I know only walk the dog around the block or in the same place/field. This will cause the rottie to become territorial as he/she grows older. In effect the rottie will see his/her den and the route around the block as his/her territory to protect and will 'growl, etc' at anyone/animal that he/she is not used to seeing during his walk. Example-my daughters teacher has a rottie bitch who is 2 and has always taken her to the same field for her run, everytime her rottie sees a dog/cat/etc which she has not seen in 'her' field before, she hurtles over to them growls and then pee's where they are standing - luckily so far she hasn't come across another rottie. She also never taught her pup from a young age not to jump up at people or run into people for a cuddle (she is 8 stone), her husband came home from work one day and the pup obviously very excited run to jump on him and ended up shattering his whole knee, he now has to walk with the assistance of crutches for the next year!
Since day 1 with my little pup (and believe me I know it is just really early days), I take him everywhere by car which is just a 10-30 minute journey, I go to the local Tesco supermarket and just stand outside so he can see different types of people (old, young, black, white, asian, small, tall, etc..), to the train station, to the local schools, the fire station, the police station. This I have been told by my trainer is a very good socialisation technique from such a young pup age. It all boils down to the frightened stage and how you deal with it from an early age. If your pup only saw females and not many males he may become aggressive towards them, if he/she only encountered white people the pup could become aggressive/scared towards other cultural beings (I am lucky here as I am white hispanic, my boyfriend is black and my daughter, obviously mixed race!) but you get the idea!
Also, I get him to meet the postman (very important!). A friend of mine had a rottie and everytime the postman delivered the mail the rottie obviously barked the house down and the postman would throw the mail through the letterbox and run off, my friend never socialised her pup properly so guess what happened - one day she is taking her rottie for a walk, rottie sees postman in uniform, rottie thinks excellent game I bark at postman he runs off and I chase but I'm normally stuck in the house and can't get him, not now I'm not!!! so he runs over to the postman and bites him on the foot (not bad), Royal Mail say they will never deliver post to her house again and she has to pick it up from the sorting office!
Sorry for going on a bit but I hope any of the above helps!!!!!
Also, if anyone has a problem with their pup and mouthing/biting I have found an excellent deterrent! A plastic bottle with some coins in it, everytime the pup tries to bite/mouth you, shake the bottle of coins and stick something else in the pups mouth to interrupt the behaviour and believe me, within 1-2 days the pup gets the message and he never gets used to the sound of the bottle! Now, whenever Kane gets excited and tries to mouth me I just pick up the bottle, he takes one look at it and starts licking me instead!
Another tip, for those of you who don't already do it! I have found that rotties need a lot of mental stimulation so I took 3 of his squeaky toys and cut them in half, every morning when I go off to work I put his breakfast (dried food) in one of them and put it in the crate, he is so busy working out how to get his breakfast out of it he doesn't even notice that I have gone and when I come back around lunchtime he's fast asleep! I use the other toy to put a load of treats into it, it keeps him occupied for hours! and the other toy I use to put soaked food into it, that also keeps him busy and he finds it very rewarding and tiring!
Sorry, but one more tip here to - if your rottie is/becomes very boisterous or over-excited, check the intake of his/hers protein levels. The rottie breed become very boisterous if they have a high protein level as dogs cannot break down their protein like humans and the only way for them to release the protein intake is by running around alot, mouthing, over-exerting themselves, etc... So if your rottie starts behaviour like this check if you have been giving your rottie high amounts of protein (i.e. tripe sticks, etc) and also, the quality of the protein intake should be from meats rather then vegetables.
Once again, I hope that this all helps in some way!

Thank you Eva for your tips, I give Titan a Kong filled in his crate whenever he goes in it.
I'll have to check his food for the protein--he eats Eukanuba Puppy.