I grab him by his muzzle...

[stavrast]

Once I wrote Judy W that I was not into 'animal abuse.' Judy W told me to take it easy with the 'abuse' stuff and that grabbing my dog's muzzle, when he/she misbehaved was not abuse.

Now, I've written before about my boy, Argos and have received some incredible advice. I have started treating him like a dog and not a baby, I have started giving him his own space out of the crate, a big pillow where he can rest and gather all his toys(ha,ha!), etc.

He is a sweet dog when he is around strangers or other dogs. Just a good ol' guy. Like some kids that you just know they'll turn out all right because they have inner goodness and honesty...I don't compare him to children, I'm just using a metaphor.

Anyway. He is trying, almost every other day, to assert himself. He doesn't play-bite as much but, at times, I'll tell him to stop doing something (Off...for example) and he'll snap at me. By 'snap' I mean he'll 'air-bite' toward my hand. Sometimes he'll growl as well while doing it. But I have also seen my mother-in-law telling him to stop doing something and he'll actually nip her! This is definitely NOT play-biting! I can tell that he is trying to assert himself as the Alpha-member of the house.

Whenever he does that I'll tell him to stop, "NO!" or "OFF" and if he snaps back at me I grab him by the muzzle and he whines. He then stops, goes to "Down" position and keeps quiet for a while. Then, I usually take him to his crate to calm down further. I'm trying though to not create the impression that crate=punishment but rather crate=chill-place so I wait until he calms down first.

Am I correct in grabbing him by the muzzle like that? I know I'm not hurting him but I defininely scare the crap out of him... It makes me feel like crap too. Because, although I have always been the big, 'macho' type, I don't believe in violence except in self-defence and then only with measure... But I know I must keep this dog down if I'm going to have any control over him. He always quiets after such an episode and those episodes are not everyday occurences but they do occur.

Could someone advise me as to whether I'm doing the right thing? Is there any other way to handle it? I know how to handle play-biting and he doesn't play-bite much. Actually he has really cut down the last month or so... But his 'snaps' are something else.
Thanks

[lblax]

in his mind he already is the pack leader!!!! this is going to take a lot of training ...... you need some 1 on 1 professional help with this dog

[Judi W]

Something is awry here.

No, I do not consider taking a pup by the muzzle and giving it some hard eye-contact and a good tongue lashing dog abuse. However, .........tada - here it comes.............

It obviously does NOT scare the crap out of this dog because it is ineffective and the dog is repeating the action which stimulates the correction. An effective correction for this type of thing does not need to be repeated because it makes an impression. (we are assuming this dog is not stupid). Of course he is all sweetness and light when everything is going his way and he only acts up when someone crosses him. Hummmmmm, what do you think this means? (reference Larry's succinct answer). It does not help change his perceptions if he is allowed to get away with threatening and biting other people.

A bite is teeth on a person with a threat so let's call it that and not a nip. The dog is saying "don't cross me or I can hurt you real bad"........ I don't think you can assume that everything is going to turn out all right. In fact, it is a good thing you have posted because as it is going now, things are not going to turn out all right at all. This is a dog that is enforcing his desires with threats of harm to others. Unfortunately for all concerned, the dog and the people, in order to turn this around it is going to require much harsher measures than would have been necessary had the dog never been allowed to elevate himself to this level in the first place. He needs serious no quarters given formal training starting yesterday. When you are not present, he should remain crated so that he is not able to assert himself agains the MIL or anyone else. Each time he successfully threatens someone it reinforces in his mind the effectiveness of his actions. When out of the crate, he should be wearing a collar and lead (no collars or leads on a dog when it is crated). Get him in serious training.

[Sharon Marples]

Ditto to what Judi and Larry have said. You are experiencing serious problems here and they'd best be treated now before something very serious happens.

Along with getting professional help, do a search of the archives here for the NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). Get your dog on it and make sure that EVERYONE in the house (including your mother-in-law and ALL visitors) use the program. If visitors cannot use the program consistently, then crate the dog when they are in the house.

Get a handle on this now or you will face ever increasing problems with your dog.

Is your dog neutered yet?

[stavrast]

Actually, NILIF was one of the firsts training programs I put him in. That's why he listens to many commands that I give him. What he needed all along is some good one to one training with a professional. I'm looking for one as we speak. Any advice as to what I should look for in a prof. trainer? No he is not neutered yet.

[lblax]

Originally posted by Sharon Marples
do a search of the archives here for the NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). Get your dog on it and make sure that EVERYONE in the house (including your mother-in-law and ALL visitors) use the program. If visitors cannot use the program consistently, then crate the dog when they are in the house.

at this point i feel this dog has already assumed his position and the nilif program may be dangerous especially for the mil or guests to attempt....... my advice is to get the dog into serious training with the help of a pro.... because youve let this get to this point this may actually esculate to a physical confrontation at some point with your dog be prepared for this and be prepared to win it

[stavrast]

About NILIF: We've been using it with the dog for some time and he obeys the commands, albeit, sometimes hesitatingly. But he does obey. Me, my wife, my mother-in-law. Now I read that it is too late for NILIF. So a question pops in my head: Which is it? Does NILIF work or am I wasting my time? What's the purpose of making him sit or go down for everything he does if NILIF doesn't work or wouldn't work but it does or doesn't...

Some of your responses would lead me to either get a professional trainer for a one-to-one session for the rest of the dog's life (if it's not too late that is...) or just shoot the damn dog and get it over with. I don't see how he has already established his Alpha-maleness, his position that is, if he obeys to everything I tell him. And what about the zoomies. I read that when dogs get them they go crazy and they have to be made to relax...

I know that a nip is really a bite and I'll deal with it by getting him a trainer but he is only 3 months old and rather than being too late for him, I think I'll manage to save his poor soul.
Thanks for the advice.

[Greg_1111]

Stavros. You really sound like you are dedicated. You are trying different things to make everything good. I commend you for that,, you care. i made a lot of mistakes at the beginning,, probably still making some. The biggest help in my situation was recognizing and understanding two things... establishing a pecking order ( dog is at the bottom of the food chain concerning all humans in the family) secondly,, the effectiveness of consistency. Also,, when you are spending time with him,, always be aware that in every aspect of your interaction, you have to be conscious of the fact that you are basically his leader. You run the show,, and you call the shots. I know this is hard sometimes, and I forget when I am having a lot of fun with mine,, but once you clearly establish this,, all of your training exercises will become much easier. And when you are teaching him things,, remember,,, timing is everything,, timing and communication. There are people on this chat that know a lot, a lot more than you and I know,, they have worked with many dogs. Seek out their wisdom

[stavrast]

Greg, thanks for the advice man. Also thanks for keeping the "too lates" out of your post. I don't believe in too-lates. I always remind him that he is the follower and the "Z-male" of the house. I can't see how he can have established himself. I can be more consistent. I think that the problem is that not all the family members are working together in 'breaking' this dog. Some of us are spoiling him and towards them he shows some disrespect, sometimes. Because most of the time he listens to all of us, even when he doesn't like it or when we cross him.
Anyway, thanks for the encouragement.

[LavenderRott]

I wouldn't give up on a 3 month old pup either.

I'm no trainer, but it seems to me that NILIF, strictly followed, is a good start while you look for a professional trainer.

Next time he snaps at you, get out your "God" voice and explain to him in no uncertain terms that you will not tolerate that kind of behavior.

As far as finding the right trainer, I think you will know when you see them work and talk to them if they are right for you and Argos. If they tell you that Rottweilers are viscious and whip out an e-collar, run!

Don't shoot him yet, wait til he hits his "teens".

[stavrast]

LavenderRott, I'll keep your words in mind. That dog trainer better be good or I'll shoot his ass too. (I'm just kidding about shooting. I don't even own a gun. I guess it's the New Yorker in me...Ha!)

Could someone please write who has made many mistakes with his/her dog? How did you manage to bring them back to civility? Someone like Greg whose post I loved.
Thanks

[Judi W]

None of the following is personal, I am simply attempting to explain some what's and why's.

The NILF is an adjunct, nothing more or nothing less. Unfortunately it is often looked at as a fix when it really doesn't fix anything. It does not substitute but can enhance straightening out some issues. For some people and some dogs it does help but certainly not in lieu of training and other behavior mod. The reason it can be said it doesn't work, is that dogs can spot a phoney in a heartbeat. If someone who is basically unsure in nature wants to use it instead of learning to be of a character that the dog deems worthy of admiration, it is not going to do anything. It costs a dog little to do a sit and get the nagger off their backs.

Almost anything you read will say "a Rottweiler is not for everyone". Also, almost everyone believes that is pure hype and that with a lot of love the dog turns out to be wonderful. Well, it is just not so and good intentions are not enough. Because these are strong-minded dogs, it takes a confident and strong- minded owner to provide a properly balanced relationship. I use strong-minded quite literally as it is character that the dog bonds to, not body size and mass or physical prowness.

From the general to the specific. You've really had a bit of a dirty trick played on you so you are going to be baptised in fire. First dog, first Rottweiler, and you said they happily sent you the strongest and most alpha of the litter. To be quite honest, I think that it was irresponsible to place a dog of that character in a novice home. Done is done. That was not kind to either you or the dog nor was it wise. It will take all your skill to get through this growing up period and yes, you should get a trainer to help you learn to communicate with the dog. You are going to have to learn on the fly as you don't have a history to reference.

I hope I have helped clear up some of the NILF business, fact and fiction. It is not a panacea, just one of many tools. As a tool, I prefer to suggest shunning. These dogs have strong social needs and are pack animals. They bond best with work and training. Just as a willful child often has to learn in school that if it doesn't play nice it will be excluded, shunning can be quite effective in putting a dog in the position of wanting to please if that is the only way it can be included. Now, by shunning I do not mean putting the dog in a crate. That is meaningless to the dog. It removes the possibility of the dog being able to ask what it can do to please or to demonstrate that it wants to do so.

[stavrast]

JudiW, please don't think that I'm taking it personally even though I'm pissed-off because I'm doing everything I can to correct this issue. Maybe he senses my inexperience in handling animals, especially rottweilers. But I'm the fast-learning human and he's the dog. So, I'll eventually win the argument and gain his respect.

What type of work are you talking about? I'm trying to find ways to exercise him and make him work to keep his mind busy. That's what keeps him calm. Making him jump, work his reflexes, learn commands... That's when he is at his most attentive and pleasant to be with.

Thanks for the advice.

[Carina43]

Steven, when I read your first post I thought you were talking about a teenage or adult dog, which would certainly be a very serious situation indeed. But a 12 week old puppy is still very malleable and unless he has faulty wiring, he'll certainly come around.

I strongly suggest you get him into an obedience class yesterday. You can search here for facilities in your area:
http://www.apdt.com/
Or better yet, call your local or state Rottweiler club and ask for recommendations. The regional club here in MI has several owner/breeder/trainers as members. That would probably be your best place to start.

You wondered if anyone had raised a very strong willed Rottie pup. My very first Rottweiler was such a puppy. I'd had dogs pretty well all my life; most were Border Collies - we had working BCs when I was growing up. They can be challenging dogs too, though in a very different way. Anyhow Ajax would growl and snap and have awful temper tantrums. Obedience classes weren't as common in the 80s, and the popular gold standard in training & canine behaviour was that laid out in the Monks of New Skete book. Among other now-frowned-upon advice was the "alpha roll" and this I did with Ajax.

I also never went to an obedience class or consulted a behaviourist. There was no internet then and the only dog books I'd read was the Monks book and Muriel Freeman's Rottweiler book. So I was pretty clueless, but I DID expect and enforce (in quite inappropriate ways by today's standards I'm sure) respect and compliance. And somehow I got it. This from a puppy who bit my then husband, drawing blood, and initially snarled & snapped at me whenever his desires were thwarted.

Ajax was probably the best Rottweiler I have ever owned. Into adulthood he remained aloof and watchful with strangers and very strong willed, but he was totally obedient and loving. Once he accepted a new person he was as sweet and affectionate as can be. He was extremely protective of me and my vehicles. And I DO mean quietly and firmly protective, not snotty, no attitude, no lunging or overt aggression. Stories for another time, but twice this dog absolutely saved me from harm. I drove a semi over the road then and he was with me 24/7 and a single female trucker was quite vulnerable back then.

I could take him through crowded streets off leash either on a bicycle or on foot, and often did. I don't recall ever having a negative reaction or experience doing this. Perhaps one reason he turned out so well was that from 6 weeks of age (another thing the hive mind here frowns on) he came with me to work every single day. I was very consistent with my requirement of good manners from him and since he was always with me, he never had a chance to get away with anything.

I am NOT suggesting you do like I did. But yes it worked, yes it's possible for a novice owner who screws up a lot to get a pup to come around! I'm sure I'm not the only person who's ever done this. :)

Anyhow. Listen to Judi & Larry & those who really are way knowlegable. But this is not necessarily a dire situation and you don't have to shoot your puppy. You're obviously smart and dedicated, you'll do it. Go to classes so you can learn and bond in a structured way. Consult with someone experienced & knowlegable in real life, so that person can watch you & Argos interact. Get others in your household inline with whatever training and behaviour modifications you implement. Be consistent & fair. Don't be afraid to scare the poop out of him when he acts up. :D

And excuse my little paean to Ajax, he was such a long ago dog I never talk about him here. But he was truly a wonderful dog.

[stavrast]

Carina, thanks for the advice and link. Both very useful. I think I can turn him around, or, rather, educate him completely, because he hasn't made any 'turns' yet. I always listen to people who know more than me. Sometimes I get confused from their advice (especially when they contradict each other) but I eventually sort things out.

I'll try to get the best trainer possible. I just have to be patient and persistent. You don't know how this thing has been gnawing inside of me all day long. It goes in and out and in and out of my head, it looks at me straight in the face but every time I try to hold it, it disappears like a ghost. It's a problem that doesn't let me solve it. And my dog is not a bad dog. (GOD, what a cliché...) And he doesn't bite as often as I might have made the impression that he did. But one bite is enough. It just has to stop. Anyway, I'm too tired to write anything else or think anything else. I'll just go to bed and try not to think about it.
Thanks