Need Advice on nipping puppy Please

[camphappy]

Hi everyone, I've enjoyed reading these posts over the last several weeks but now I need some advice from you seasoned Rott owners.

My family got a Rott (mix?) from our local shelter about 6 weeks ago. We think he is now about 4-5 months old (he is losing his front teeth). Puppy classes start in about a week for him now that he has all his shots.

The question: This pup (Shaq) is rather aggressive. How do I know if he is going to continue being aggressive through adulthood? How much of this pup aggression can be "cured" by consistent training?

I keep him tied up in our kitchen/dining room on a 6 ft leash when he is inside. He sleeps at night in a crate. When we are not at home he is in an outside kennel with a dog house. He can be very affectionate (loves to be petted and rolls on his back for tummy rubs) but often bites when playing. When he does I immediately scold him and leave him alone. Though he has made great improvements it is still a problem. The other day he got a hold of a corncob and was not about to let me have it. He growled and snapped at me when I tried to get it from him. Later I put one in my hand and worked with him on the "leave it" , "take it"and "out" commands and he did well. I take his food away regularly and hand feed him without ever having a problem. But I question how consistent he will be as an adult and how much I can trust him. He seems to be very intelligent and is doing well on the limited obedience work we're doing.

Our last dog was a Rhodesian Ridgeback which I trained for search and rescue. She was slightly dominant but I never remember having this biting problem with her as a pup.

Oh, and by the way, I have 5 children ranging from age 3 to age 12. It's my 3 and 5 year olds that tend to get bit by him even though I try to limit their "playing".

What are your thoughts? Can this dog work in our family or would he be better off in a smaller, less kids household? Has anyone had an aggressive pup that has turned out to be a trustworthy adult? I would appreciate any comments/help you can give.

[lblax]

sounds like you are doing ok by him keep working on the outs by exchanging something for what he got i trained mine with 2 tennes balls.... it doesnt sound like agression to me just puppy stuff..... really there is no reason to take his food this will make him leary that you are going to take it and when he has a prize he will react feeding him by hand is ok and add goodies to his food bowl while he is eating so while eating and chewing on something he will associate good things with you being around...... i think your dog will be trustworthy as an adult( but of course you know never leave children unsupervised with any dog) you have already trained one strong breed to a level most of us could never acheive so i have confidance in you

[Judi W]

You used the term "aggressive". Is this really aggression or is it a pup who was not taught not to put teeth on people? There is a difference and it could be either, or even both involved. If this is ill tempered aggression, this might not be the right pup for such a large and busy family. If it is simply that by adopting an older pup you have one who was not taught earlier not to bite on people, it will learn as long as you are consistent and supervise (which it sounds as if you are doing). Takes time.

[whithill]

Hi and a hearty welcome to these forums. First of all, I am by no means an expert, but there were things in your post that were quite familiar to me. We got our Rott (mix?) from the pound a year ago. She was four months old and very feisty. Your description of Shaq perfectly matches Dinah at that age. I have a couple of suggestions. As to the mouthing/biting stuff, yes that sounds like puppy stuff but it's a pain in an a** and not acceptable. Others on this site disagree with this method, but we had excellent success (on the advice of a trainer) with a well-timed spritz with a spray bottle when she was mouthy. It really was quite effective and did not take many times to make her start thinking about that behavior in a whole new way.

I also tried a squirt of lemon in her mouth when there was any mouth-to-skin nonsense.

Since a lot of her "worst" behavior was on walks (particularly near the end when she was tired, bit the leash and got crazy and snappy), I carried a small spray bottle with me in my pocket. I hardly had to use it. We both knew it was there.

With both these methods (bottle and lemon) timing was of the essence. Got to catch her in the act. Even a 10-second delay is too long).

These methods were ways to bridge the gap until she grew out of this stuff. I suspect (as you might with Shaq) that Dinah was taken away from her mom before the critical 8-week marker and did not learn those last important anti-biting lessons. It's so hard to know with pound puppies or when the history is unknown.

For us, the Gentle Leader leash was quite effective too, tho there are those on this site who will disagree. Actually, I use that one and my husband uses the prong (also effective) and Dinah doesn't seem to mind the change a bit.

As to aggressive or not aggressive, we've wrestled with that question. A LOT. She definitely could be a bossy little girl if we let her. She is dominant with most other dogs, but not aggressive. THe best thing to do is classes, classes, and more classes. Training--every day--along with lots of people/dog socialization keeps their busy little minds on the right track. We've done group classes plus some private evaluations. All helpful. Today at 15 months, she is delightful and MUCH calmer.

As to your big family, that's definitely something to consider. Of course, NEVER leave the smaller kids unattended with the dog. THe other thing is that with a group that large, everyone has to be on the same page as to dog rules. I am in the midst of a very unpleasant controversy with my teenaged son who insists on roughhousing with her even tho I have been told repeatedly by many different people that rough play is a BAD idea with a big dog who is trying her best to learn the rules.

OK, I've rambled on enough. Good luck!

[jayneliz]

Hi Camphappy.... and welcome.

Could you describe in more detail what you are perceiving as "aggressive"? I get the part about taking the corncob away and he growled/snapped, but are there other behaviors to which you refer?

My new puppy (11 weeks) is also very mouthy. I'm not so concerned, and in fact do not discourage it, UNLESS she becomes too rough. She's learned what 'easy' means. I think the nipping is just puppy play, and I do not want to discourage that play drive. Instead, I am redirecting that energy into something else. (Toss a ball between my legs or a toy... and having her get it.)

I am a wee bit concerned that Shaq is spending his inside time tied in the kitchen. How much interaction does Shaq get with the family? He does need to be with the family, and not left alone for the majority of his life. Does he have a means of exercise (walks, swimming, etc.) that tire him out? At his age, I would think he's gonna be a ball of fire. Perhaps some good hard work is in order - you know - just to knock some wind outta his sails. Even a 10 -15 minute obedience routine two or three times a day (heeling on lead or working on recalls) would be good.

I have two Rotts and Ridgie.... believe me, the Rotts are a day at the beach compared to the Ridgie. If you can train a Ridgie - you're not going to have many problems with the Rott!

Good luck - hope to hear from you soon!

[camphappy]

Thanks for everyone's input. I have learned so much from all of you who frequent this forum.

Regarding Shaq's nipping, most of it is true play - just rough- but like I stated before, a big improvement from a couple of weeks ago. The aggression has been (1) the corncob incident, (2) occasionally when I leash him, (3) when I flipped him on his back at the advice of another Rott owner when he was getting too aggressive with (2) problem. I don't know if people recommend the flipping but I won't do that again with him. It made him more aggressive and in no way seemed to make him submit to me.

I have been socializing him with other dogs and he is doing very well. He has never shown aggression to any of them even when they show aggression to him (which is usually because they have no patience with a wild puppy.) The puppy classes should allow him to play with someone his own age. He loves other people but again, has a tendency to play too hard.

Though he is tied up most of the time he is inside, we are almost always with him. There is almost always someone in the kitchen and we are almost always home. When we go out we often take him along. I find if I let him have the run of the house too much he starts showing his dominant side more. I think I will try keeping him on leash with me throughout the house more. I should be able to reprimand him quicker as well as bond him better to me. I will try adding 1-2 short training sessions with him per day too. (when I had my Ridgeback as a pup I had no kids and lots of time.)

Again, thanks for your help. I do feel he is going to be a great dog but just wanting to make sure he's in the right place. I know few Rott owners and unfortunately the Rotts have a bad reputation in some other dog (and non-dog) circles. This forum makes all you Rott friends accessible. (what did we do before internet?)

[jayneliz]

Well, Camphappy - you sound like you've got a really good handle on things. I really like that you decided not to toss him on his back, I don't ever do this... It does seem to push them into a fight or flee mode. Not all advice here is terrific, but it's given with the best intent. (I've been slapped around a couple times myself for bad advice - just goes to show you that there truly ARE different strokes for different folks.) You have to figure out what to heed and what to toss. I suggest that whenever you post, you kinda read between the lines. It's really important to figure out WHY the dog is behaving the way he is, and then thinking through how he is going to react to certain stimulus.

May I ask what your plans are for this dog? Is he going to be a pet or a working dog?

I also like leaving a short line on my pups, even when roaming about the house. I can get them quicker and get their attention back as well. I don't tie my dogs in the house, though.

The socialization you'll BOTH get at puppy class will do you guys wonders. Great job there too.

Remember, he is an intact boy (which I know you don't want to discuss) but you must realize that this is going to make your lives a LOT tougher to deal with. He's going to have TONS of pent up energy, that need directed into something productive. Again, if he's being rough, give him a ten or fifteen minute NBS workout, then put him in his crate for awhile.

I just finished reading a book by Bobbi Anderson, "Building Blocks for Performance." I am really LOVING her ideas and have seen her dogs in action (SUPERB).

Best of luck to you and yours...

[Beckysmom]

Is your dog getting:

lots and lots of exercise?--a tired dog is a good dog

play time where "too hard" is not an issue--games like hide and seek, or fetch, not roughhousing

-----------
and what do you mean by it is being aggressive when you try to put a leash on it?

[moondog]

Hi camphappy :)

Instead of tying him to a chair while inside, how about tying him to you? If you make a loop through the loop of your 6 ft leash, you can step into it, bring it up around your waist and practice the "umbilical method" for awhile. This is a great way of supervising him and establishing a leadership position at the same time. When you move, he has to move with you, when you remain in one place, so does he. He'll develop a little humility in his attitude without you feeling like you have to do things like flipping him. It's always better to foster a spirit of cooperation than one of adversity.

When teaching him to release an object, start by trading a toy for an equal or better (in his mind) toy and then returning the toy to him. You can work up to higher value items like corncobs :D or bones as he shows his cooperation with the others.

Plan for success! In Jean Donaldson's book, Culture Clash, she make a great point - "Rewards ultimately drive behavior. Punishment is only an obstacle to be overcome on the way to the reward." :)

[Gretta]

Originally posted by moondog
Hi camphappy :)

Instead of tying him to a chair while inside, how about tying him to you?

As I read through the posts, I was going to suggest this too!
A few months ago Gretta went through a phase where she just would not leave the cats alone- not being aggresive really, just shoving her nose under their bums and running them around like wheelbarrows- a game the cats were not fond of :p

The verbal corrections and distractions we tried seemed to have little effect, so for a few days I tethered her to me whenever she was loose in the house. There was an immediate improvement- I love it when you can actually see the light go on
:D

Cori

[camphappy]

I am taking the advice of keeping Shaq with me more. Everyone's advice has been great and has increased my confidence with this dog and I'm realizing he's not such a "bad" dog afterall. (The last time I had a pup was 13 years ago and she turned out to be the GREATEST dog I could imagine so I think I have the attitude that no dog could be as great as she was!) I'm probably not giving Shaq enough credit for all his great qualities.

I had to laugh when I saw the remark about tying him to a chair. I used to tie him to our kitchen table but he would literally drag the entire table around the kitchen! I can't imagine what he would have done to a chair! We ended up putting a bolt in the wall and tie him to that. It is right next to his bed and I will still use it when I want him to have some down time until he learns to "bed" and "stay" when told to. His crate is in the bedroom and I don't like to put him in there during the day since it is away from the rest of us.

I do like the squirt bottle idea for the rough playing with his teeth. I might give that a try. I'm using more rewards when I want to put his leash on or put him outside when he doesn't want to so it hopefully becomes a "good" thing and he won't try to fight me so much. I do think most of his problems are a maturity thing.

Regarding the question what our goals are for him. We want him mostly for a loyal family dog. My husband likes the big dogs for their protection. And I love obedience work with dogs and plan on doing a lot of that. I also enjoy agility work but not sure if this big breed is good at that. With my busy family, search and rescue is not an option but would be fun to try it with a Rottie.

Two last questions: Shaq loves to play with our friend's Akita. They play very rough, though. Should I discourage this? Also, we're curious if Shag is pure Rottwieler or mixed. Do Rotties have webbed feet? Shaq's feet are webbed and his ears seem a little floppy for a Rot. Wondering if he might have some Lab.

Thanks again for your help.
Gretchen