Is there hope for Daphne?

[Carina43]

I think I have one of those rare dumb Rottweilers...

She had a bad beginning to life, and we got her as a young adult from the pound. I hope it goes without saying that we have NEVER hit or physically punished her...

Anyhow, there are basic things that I have not figured out how to teach her, and she has not generalised one single command, ever. For instance, after a few months I had her sitting sort of mostly for a treat while in the kitchen. But asking her to sit at the curb during a walk is like a whole different command to her - and she still often has to be reminded to sit, even for treats in the kitchen. We have (she still need reminding, and it's taken 16 months) taught her not to jump up on us as a greeting - but we have to put a leash on her when visitors come over, because she will NOT stop jumping on them. If she gets an energetic leash pop, she acts as if she's about to be beaten and falls to the ground sort of slinking on her belly. Eventually it gets exasperating, so she goes out or is crated.

She has been through beginning obedience twice, and basically acted like a toddler with the attention span of a gnat and using treats were out of the question - she was just so extremely agitated that other dogs around her were also getting treats, she was learning very little. None of the trainers had any suggestions except for 'be patient, she'll get it." She hasn't.

I've tried for months to get her to retrieve - she was doing it naturally at times, so I thought maybe teaching her a structured game that we could have some "one on one" time with daily would be a confidence builder. Sometimes she'll retrieve, sometimes she won't. Sometimes she gets anxious and rolls on her back or goes to her belly looking scared. I swear I try my best to be consistent and low key and positive, but her responses are often inconsistent, and frankly weird at times.

We've also been doing a "NILIF" sort of program for a long time, but she just acts confused a lot - she will sit if asked, but staying for more than 20 seconds makes her act like we're about to beat her.

A long time ago I had a foundling puppy who came very close to dying from distemper. She survived, but she had some of the same characteristics - no attention span and it was extremely difficult to get her to understand the most basic commands. The vet figured she might have some brain damage from the very high temps she'd run, or something - I wonder if there's something physiological with Daphne, or she just had a really really bad start to life?

She's very sweet natured and affectionate, and has an endearing street-smart sneakiness to her that tells me she's probably not really dumb, but I just haven't figured out how to teach her. (Should I be hitting myself over the head with a rolled up newspaper now?) :o

Anyhow, I'm kind of frustrated, sorry this is long - I feel like I've really done well with the challenges that Cooper and Dutch have presented, as well as previous dogs I've had, some of whom were very well trained dogs who came to work with me daily - but here I can barely teach Daphne to sit - stay for more than 20 seconds. Any thoughts or ideas?

[Rott-Wiley]

It sounds like she needs to have her confidence built up to me. If she'll stay for 20 seconds in a sit, why not start to reward her at 15 seconds to assure her that she is doing well. It sounds like she will work for praise so that is what I'd go with until something better comes along. Keep the training sessions real short for now, maybe just 5 minutes of real positive stuff as often as you can per day 5 or 6 times if you can. See if she will come around with that.

[moondog]

I had a dog that sounds a lot like Daphne without the part where she thinks she's going to be physically punished. This dog was a Springer, street-smarts supreme and I always said she was one of those dogs who could be turned loose in the middle of nowhere and would survive just fine. She knew how to take care of her needs, like getting wet when she was hot and climbing trees to get fruit. She loved people and hated dogs. Her very unique-to-her intelligence and ability to problem-solve made her a fun dog to observe.

I was never able to teach her a damn thing. :D She was by far the most frustrating dog I have had the pleasure to know and she lived to be 16 years old, too! Man, oh man! By the time she was ready to check out, my yard had been wrecked for 15-1/2 years and the farthest I could let her get in the house was in the kitchen, unless I wanted to spend the rest of the week rehabilitating the house.

I got her from a shelter at 6 months. Her previous life had been growing up inside a woman's condo while she was a work, not crated, and she learned EVERY taboo you can think of. She unlearned none of them. I learned to have the patience of a saint! :D

Believe it or not, I smile when I think of her - she really was one-of-a-kind :).

If you find something that works, let me know what it is, because I sure don't know it! Sorry........... :D

[Beckysmom]

Interesting.

I knew a post distemper dog who seemed to have severe hyperactivity disorder, though I always attributed it to being puppymilled.

And my neighbors had a dog that was kicked in head by horse as pup that never seemed to be able to get obedience, though in other ways it seemed okay and relatively normal.

Here is another of my just throwing out bunches of ideas that come to me:

My dog Beck could not cope with choke chains or leash pops ever. She was too sensitive, and there was nothing wrong with her. It just wasn't her style. We also had a lot of trouble with jumping on guests , which turned out to be based on UPS and Fed Ex people carrying treats and holding them in air such that she was being taught to jump on visitors. I like to mention this whenever people have trouble with jumping so that they will look to make sure it has not been being rewarded. Possibly by someone else than you.

I wonder if a change of gear would help--like a head halter or a front buckling harness, just to change the feeling and associations? And maybe put that head halter or whatever on a very very short tie to your own body when guests come? That way she wouldn't be able to jump in the first place, so no correction needed in the second place. And then maybe work on the "sit" for guests and reward it a lot.

This will possibly sound weird, but have you tried mentally imaging to her what you want her to do? It actually does work for some dogs. Really! ;) (But not all, alas.) Both Becky and Bodhi have responded surprisingly well to more normal talking than one is supposed to do with dogs. As in, "I would appreciate it if you would wait here for me." was far more effective with Beck in most real situations than "wait!" or with Bodhi when he arrived, "In this house dogs do not pee indoors." and also, yes, "In this house dogs do not jump on people." Yeah, I know we are supposed to tell not ask our dogs to do things, and use simple one word commands, etc. etc. But sometimes something else works better in certain situations.

T-touch? "Body wraps" to try to help settling down? Flower essences?

Bruce Fogle in his book on Dog communication mentions that some hyper dogs who have an actual disorder benefit from drugs, including, as I recall, small amounts of caffeine which settle them down rather than jazzing them up. But I don't recall for sure what the book said, and certainly don't recommend medicating without a vet's input.

Long stays at your feet during meals with fairly frequent high level treats given? (Good things come to dogs who settle down idea.)

How about a name change for a new start?

When you wrote that treats during the obedience classes was out of question, why was it out of question?

T-touch in particular has been really helpful to get Big B to start to calm down. So has certain music--he gets sleepy for Gregorian chant, and Thomas Tallis--so do I! He is still hyper at training class to the extent that all we work on there pretty much is being calm and keeping to his own focus like a down stay no matter what the other dogs are doing. And we don't get closer to the other dogs than he can handle.

[MARYDVM]

With a very difficult dog, some trainers advocate more than just treat training. Every chunk of kibble comes from your hand in response to a desired behavior. Not always formal obedience, either. Simply staying by your side, quietly while you are reading or watching TV can be a stimulus for you to pass out kibble every minute or so. You would have to wear a bait bag constantly, no more food in the dish at all, and you would have to focus pretty consistently on the dog's behavior to feed at appropriate times. A clicker helps to "mark" the desired behavior, but is not absolutely necessary. Takes time, but really focuses the dog's attention on you.

[Carina43]

Rott-Wiley, I completely agree that she needs more confidence - I just cannot figure out how to instill that in her! That's why I thought if she learned one "trick" well and we had fun with it daily, like retrieving, it would make her feel more accomplished. But a lot of the time any sort of obedience or even playing seems to stress her, I can't figure out why.

Becky's Mom - I hadn't thought of a head halter - it might freak her out, but perhaps it would be worth a try for walks. Treating for every desired behaviour is a good idea too, though difficult with multiple dogs in the house! Maybe I'll up the ante with higher value treats, though she'll go nuts over dry bread, so I'm not sure that will work.

Maybe those body wraps - those sound like a really woo-woo idea, but I have read some good reports on them.

It at least feels good to know that I'm not the only one with such a challenging dog...she's really such a sweetie, and I just think she would be happier if she didn't feel so compulsive and anxious much of the time!

[Beckysmom]

Do You mean that you can't use treats because they make her too bonkers, not because they fail to interest her?

When I read comment on bread, one thing I would do if she were mine is go with a very natural diet for a while and see if that helped. Like, maybe a cooked grain like oatmeal, vegetables, and meat. No sugars, preservatives, colorings, etc. and I'd also try to avoid common allergens like wheat, soy, and milk for at least a while and see if that helps any. The sort of thing that you can find recipes for in Pitcairn etc. type books. Does she get enough exercise since she is hard to play with and hard to walk?

If you try the head halter I suggest not putting it on for something that is already a problem activity right off the bat. But instead coupling it with something pleasant (if that exists for her). I like the Gentle Leader much better than the Halti. I was also told about an English halter made of leather that sounded even better (not one that can be pawed off, and won't irritate sensitive eye area which is a problem with the other types). If you do a search I posted its name and website link to someone else, but the name suddenly escapes me now. Oh, wait, it was called the Dogmatic and the url was along the lines of dogmatic.uk. It's far more expensive, but I think if I were getting one today for a dog that is the one I would try since it seems to avoid the problems with other halters. It still cannot be used safely if the dog can hurt its neck with dashes and lunges, and is not used for correction, but the point would be to change away from something that might have very negative associations for the dog from even before you ever got her, and to be able to get control at close quarters so that she doesn't have a chance to jump on friends etc. I was also told by the person who told me about that dogmatic halter (who walks shelter dogs) that it seems to calm them and often _increases_ confidence (unlike the nylon ones that seem to depress some dogs).

I've never tried the body wrap stuff, but have heard good things. I have personally tried and been absolutely sure that T-Touch is useful.

Also, for a not calm dog like my Bodhi, I have found that down-stay is our most important thing to work on which improves calmness. We actually do mat-stay more often so that he is not required to hold an obedience position down, but only to stay in one designated area, and he can have toys etc as long as he stays there. He is on one right now, next to me, with a macho stix chew.

How does Daphne breathe? Normal pace or like it is over rapid?

[LORHEL]

Hi Carina, I know your frustration, on the overly submissive part as well.

I am fortunate enough though, at least Makita is treat motivated, and obedient for the most part. Every so often she decides to get stubborn, so I have to get firm.

Don't get me wrong, she gets obedience work at home every day, but there are times, when she will go into "selective hearing". She will not go out to go potty, and just seems to have a general pouty mood, and has no desire to move off the couch.

It doesn't happen alot. I know she's challenging me, when she raises her head or gives me that blank stare....

I worried for awhile she maybe had some kind of head injury previous to me getting her, as she would just zone out. It scared the hell out of me for the first few months.

Anyway, the disicpline part is not easy. She drops to the ground, in a submissive roll, if I even raise my voice towards her.

She is overly sensitive to anyone in the house, or wherever we are, who raises their voice. She is RIGHT THERE head in your lap making sure all is okay.

But her overall temperament and intelligence is not lacking.

For example: this morning and last nite, she refused to go potty. (BTW we don't have accidents in the house, this girl will hold it for hours...)

So last nite, as she dropped down, and put her body into the couch, ready to resist... I picked up all 100 pounds of her, and gently placed her on the patio to go. Once that happened, it was like a new dog. No big deal, I was going potty anyway... yeah right...

Its hard because you feel like they don't trust you at that point, so I wish I had more answers, just trying to compare.

:( :(

[pfoley]

Maybe the dog needs more exercize. That might take some of the pent up energy out of the dog. You could try walking the dog longer to see if that works. Then throwing the ball around the yard in the afternoon. Maybe if the dog tires a little it won't have so many problems listening and obeying; just a thought.

[mmgy]

Originally posted by MARYDVM
With a very difficult dog, some trainers advocate more than just treat training. Every chunk of kibble comes from your hand in response to a desired behavior. Not always formal obedience, either. Simply staying by your side, quietly while you are reading or watching TV can be a stimulus for you to pass out kibble every minute or so. You would have to wear a bait bag constantly, no more food in the dish at all, and you would have to focus pretty consistently on the dog's behavior to feed at appropriate times. A clicker helps to "mark" the desired behavior, but is not absolutely necessary. Takes time, but really focuses the dog's attention on you.

I don't think my Cleve is quite as far off the mark as Carina describes Daphne, but this advice has been given to me in reference to him. The problem I have implementing it, and that would make this hard for Carina as well, is multiple dogs.

[spidey]

Carina, may I suggest that you pick up a book called "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller? I just finished reading it, and the emphasis of the training (clicker-based, but you can use voice instead of clicker) is on getting the dog to think for itself and become an active participant in the training. It's just one of the myriad books I'm reading just now, and some of what she writes may make you roll your eyes, but her philosophy is very consistent, and it does all make sense in the end. May be worth a shot if what you're doing now isn't working.

[Grendl]

We had a mixed breed (dobe/coonhound) female who had many of the problems you describe with Daphne. She was young stray who wandered into our yard. We were unable to find her owners, and opted to keep her. My husband was her primary trainer, and for the first year+, we allowed her to bond with us, and gave very few corrections, and expected very little of her beyond housebreaking, and chewing on inappropriate objects. It took him at least another year to instill some basic obedience in her, sit, down, come. Her confidence level remained low throughout her lifetime, and she was very emotionally needy (some might say demanding). On the other hand, her lack of confidence only came into play with people. She was fine, playful, and not submissive, with other dogs. Ultimately, we never developed high expectations with this dog. The Rott that we had at the same time lived by much stricter rules, but also got more privleges in return. The mutt was a real sweetie, though.

[Beckysmom]

In the threads on training where I asked if anyone had any clues to training re secondhand dogs, I think it was the sort of problems you are describing as well as my troubles with B that I had in mind. I got the recommended book, and found it uplifting in regard to cartoons and that others have had such trouble before me, but it did not actually address things like dogs who are afraid of certain hand signals, or don't know how to play or whatever. Maybe the problem is that there are too many different variations on what a secondhand dog has previously experienced to have any idea that is likely to work for all or even many of them.

Bodhi is not like what you are describing in Daphne, insofar as I have never doubted that he has very high intelligence--to the extent that that itself can cause troubles when he applies it to figuring out how to dismantle his kennel etc. Another area of greatest problems is also a great strength which comes from his extreme agility and athleticism, which again is a problem if he is busy scaling chain link fence or climbing onto the roof.

But I do have similar problems with him in re hyperness around other dogs, fear of certain things related to training ("come"--such that I had to change the word. And then I thought "down" was another word problem, but when I changed to "plotz" it still was a problem and I discovered he was handshy in regard to the handsignal of a hand moving downward from overhead, so I had to change that) which have taken a good bit of ingenuity to work around. And even that certain things I thought would be rewarding turned out to be aversive to him (e.g. any treat with liver in it) .

He also had limited play ability which I think at first made him be thought of as older than he was (the humane shelter that asked originally if I could foster him guessed that he might be around 2 years old, but he was still a large puppy who didn't know how to play--except for ripping towels and chasing trucks.) I found clicker training hugely helpful with him on certain things like shaping a retrieve, though in other areas I think it is just too slow for both him and me, since he does have high intelligence and gets easily bored. He is still not big on balls and we do better with a planet bone kong with a little cheese stuffed in its holes, and an air kong donut as retrieve toys, "go find" toys, pretty much everything. If you can't get Daph interested in balls, you might try other items, and even other items where some food can be tucked inside (though I am still not clear on what the problem with her and treats is).

In general though, he is not a submissive or fearful dog. In that regard your pup seems more like Beck (who was too sensitive for choke collars), or even the Golden retriever that preceded her who was frightened of various things especially if they made loud noises. Both of those dogs had to be trained with far more sensitive methods involving much much praise and little correction, which generally needed to be a mild "uhuh".

I also grew up with a truly sweet but not obedience oriented dog--luckily a cocker spaniel so a jump up on someone was not likely to be a major problem. She never did learn much in a formal sense, but lived out happily to her teens like the Springer mentioned above (she was not destructive luckily though). She was not exactly stupid--she went with me to wait for school bus daily (this was back in the "old days" when dogs were allowed to be offleash roamers so long as they didn't bite) and took herself home again, was a good watchdog, came when her name was called...but she never got a reliable "sit" (and she was so sensitive any correction at all--including a look of disapproval--was likely to result in submissive peeing), and was extremely difficult to house train (took her over a year to get the concept, I think, and she still peed if there was thunder or lightning). My family just learned to live with her peculiarities--though again, that might be easier in a twenty pound dog.

My inclination is to think that Daphne is more of the oversensitive type, and not so much testing you and your authority.

Maybe it would help to make up a list of what she really needs to know in terms of obedience in order to make life with her okay. And limit what you try to teach her, to some degree accepting that she may not have obedience work as her forte--and that for that reason nothing in that area is likely to give her great feelings of confidence. Is there anything that she does on her own that would lend itself to a quality or skill that is all hers?

(example, the cocker I mentioned was a good watch dog--barking only--and elected to sleep in a basket by the front door as her job in life, along with her trips to take me to schoolbus--while the other dog I had at the time, who was a brilliant retriever, sharp on obedience skills, easily housetrained etc., stayed in a dogrun while I was at school, and was not much of a watchdog. The golden--whose life didn't coincide with either of the former two--used her natural talents to go get the newspaper every day, help carry in rocery bags, and so on. What has Daphne got on the positive side to work with? what drew you to her in the first place?)

[cpalenchar]

okay... I have one small suggestion-- for the jumping on people thing....

first I'm explain my philosophy-- I believe that sometimes when you can get a dog to try multiple behaviors until you reward the right one--- they learn much better than the luring them into position way. Like if they came up with the idea themselves they get it quicker?

So-- maybe you can try with her what I did with my puppies. Find a willing friend. Then when she greats them and jumps all over them have them *ignore* her until she has "4 on the floor"-- then immediately give her a ton of attention. The attention will *probably* get her jumping again, so you have to be prepared to immediately withdraw attention until she has "4 on the floor" again.... And then repeat over and over again-- hopefully with some different people.

I know some people recommend the training an alternate (incompatible) behavior in place of an undesirable behavior (e.g. sit instead of jump). But-- I get the feeling this would be hard (impossible) to do with this girl..... I would just focus on rewarding correct behavior and ignoring incorrect behavior.....

as for confidence building... I need help with that too. I thought someone posted a link to "confidence building exercises" just the other week... but I haven't been able to find it to reference it..... maybe that poster will post it again?????

-chloe

[Carina43]

BeckysMom, I think you've got a pretty good idea of how Daphne is, like some of your other dogs - she doesn't test me at all, she's very submissive to people and on the bottom of the totem pole with the other dogs. She'd probably blossom more if she was an only dog, to be honest. Her thing with food, is that she gets so incredibly focussed on it, I just cannot make her sit still or obey with a treat in my hand! She just sort of wigs out. And in class, with other people and dogs & all the treats - well I thought her head was going to explode. She would not settle down.

She had been tied with a 4' rope in a backyard, with no food, water or shelter - in November. She had to be shot with a tranquiliser by Animal Control - then she spent almost 6 weeks in the pound, her time was almost up when I got her. She weighed 48lbs, had a raging staph infection (which still reoccurs) and was covered in feces. Poor dog. :(

She had had zero training, we don't think she'd been in a house or car before, and had no clue how to act with other dogs. She piddled if you just looked at her to long, and got very destructive if she was left alone. So - she's come a long way, all in all!

While I don't give her as much walks and individual training & attention as the boys, she gets a ton of exercise. We've got a huge fenced area - about 1/3 acre, and she plays running games with the boys. Plus several times a week she's out with me on a long line (don't trust her recall!) in the woods. Now that the weather is getting better, I'm thinking of trying to get her to run with the bicycle, so maybe I can take her for early am/pm rides.

Chloe - what you describe in teaching not to jump is pretty much what worked with us, it's a great technique. Trouble is, for every new person, it's like a whole different exercise for her! She just does not generalise even simple things. I'm not sure where the confidence-building thread went...I do know that a consistent "NILIF" type approach will often help. Unless you have a retarded dog like Daphne! :D Her problem isn't so much stubborness as she just gets stressed and anxious. I was trying to get her to stand so I could measure her height, and no matter what I did, (luring with treats/toys, happy talk, whatever) the minute I tried to put a pencil across her shoulders to mark the wall, or put the tape measure next to her, she would drop to her belly and look scared. I finally gave up.

You guys are giving me some direction, though. I think I will work more on calm downstays. The at Miller book has been on my "to read" list - I'll pick up a copy. I don't expect a whole lot of Daph, I just want her to be a bit calmer and happier - it surely must be stressful living in such a state of anxiety!

Well, I'm rambling away, this has just been on my mind for a while, I feel inadequate! It's a nice cool day and I've got a little time to kill, I think I'll check the air in the bicycle tires and see if she'll walk next to it (with me just walking) without acting like I'm going to club her over the head with it. :p