Sudden bouts of agression toward dogs

[Wrath]

In last week's class, Jaxom showed 2 incidents of pretty sudden agression. The first time was with a female weimaraner. They were both on leads and pinch collars and were fairly calm. He started to wander over to her, and I eased up on the lead so that he could get close enough to sniff. I try to remain calm and not to have a tight lead when he starts investigating other dogs. I feel that tension can instigate agression. He seemed fine, as I said he walked over to her, and they were casually sniffing each other's muzzles. I didn't see any warning signs, neither dog seemed tense or showing any signs of fear or agression, no tense bodies, staring, hackles, tails calmly wagging, ears hanging loosely...but all the same he turned on her and snapped at her face in an instant. She yelped and jumped back, and I pulled a very suddenly angry dog away from her. I was VERY worried that he'd given her a good bite, but it looked like it was just the scare that caused her to vocalize. I appologized and stammered the words that made me feel like an idiot 'he's NEVER done anything like that before' while my wife talked to the owner and made sure there was no damage or hard feelings.

The 2nd incident happened as we were working heeling in a circle. There are about 12 dogs in class, so we had a good amount of traffic. Jaxom was doing great, in just the right spot, looking up at me and then a GSD ended up in front of us and he turned and lunged. He got pretty solid leash pop, but he practically ignored it and continued to stare and bark and the GSD now moving rapidly away from him. I drug him off to the corner of the ring (mistake I know, should've gone to the center) and just tried to get him under control again. He finally settled down a bit and started to watch me again until the other GSD came around the circle and BOOM...lunging, barking, slavering mad dog on the end of my lead.

I really hate to hear people say this, but he's never done anything like this before. He's shown some slighting aggressive behaviors before, but never this dramatic, sudden, and with none of the usual warning signs that I've tried to keep an eye out for. I don't believe that he's really intent on doing damage, it appears to me to be pretty much the same sort of bullying tactics he uses with our other dog when they play. We did our best to socialize him with people and other dogs as a puppy, and our only regret was the lack of a playmate when he was young to learn good "dog manners" but since getting Dee he's gotten much better. There are only 2 things that I can think of:

1) it was raining and to the best of my knowledge, Jaxom has never been in a metal building while it's raining. The noise may have been making him unsettled in a way that I just didn't notice. His focus was still good and asides from one or two glances at the ceiling he didn't show any signs of even noticing the rain.

2) All of the dogs he's shown aggression toward have been female. Our other dog is female and a GSD mix and he's a bit of a bully when playing with her. We think that he may possibly be getting confused with other female dogs (especially big GSD looking dogs) and trying to exert his usual aggressive tactics with them. Silly lemon brain.

Anyone have any ideas what might be triggering these behaviors? I understand that aggression toward other dogs is within the breed standard and it's not a big surprise for me to see it. I'm more concerned about the lack of warning signs (or my lack of being able to read my dog) so that I can intervene and steer him away from trouble. It's very unsettling to feel that I don't have a handle on my dog's behavior.

The only suggestion the trainer could offer was to keep a closer eye on him and the second he makes any dominant or aggressive action, give him a hardy pop with the pinch. I'm not averssive to using correction, but without understanding the root of what's prompting the behavior I don't feel like I'm doing my job.

[Rott-Wiley]

Well, I think the signs were there and you just missed them. You said "He started to wander over to her," From now on you can read that as a red flag. You didn't say how old he was but I'm sure that plays a factor in this too.

I say this while looking for some wood to knock on, my girl went through a phase when she was very dog aggressive. She still tends to play room monitor but the more I work with her, the more she is learning to take her cues off of me and realize I'm going to put up with her running the show.

Just keep working with him and watch him like a hawk. During the training sessions he should be paying attention to you and not to socialize with other dogs.

[rottnkidd]

Work on your attention exercises and don't allow your dog to say hello to any dog, or even look while you're in class. He needs to know when you enter the building the bull sh-- stops! it's time to pay attention and work, not to socialize! In order to successfully proceed in your training he must know this, and it's up to you to enforce it. Keep a toy tucked in your back pocket and whip it out to keep him paying attention to you. If he's food motivated, use different types of treats. (hot dogs, rollover, cheese cubes, meatballs, baked liver, etc.) Don't allow him to get bored. Don't give him any opportunity to start acting out. If he's not paying attention to you, then he's watching something else; like a dog. Don't allow it! Tell him "Uh-uh, leave it". Then have him sit, get his eyes on you, praise him like crazy the second he makes eye contact, and whip out the toy and/or food. He'll soon learn it's more rewarding to watch you. Be consistent and firm. Best wishes-
kathy

[Judi W]

I will also suggest that a dog that attacks bitches has a serious (I'm not kidding here) problem. If he is abusive to his housemate and has been getting away with that I'm sure it doesn't help but it confirms that his dog social skills are sadly lacking..

Yes, dogs do things they've never done before but now you know. I wouldn't hazard to guess why he is doing this (I doubt it was the rain on the roof and we know he did not mistake who the other dogs were) and attention work will not solve it but will help. A dog is not going to be at attention all the time but he needs to learn to mind his own business. Please do not blame this on the standard. It states "aggressive attitude" not that attacking is OK. That is the problem with that statement is that the novice reads the words "aggressive" and forgets the "attitude". Continue reading and you will find the words "controlled, willing and adaptable". When you see his gaze directed towards another dog, pop him before he becomes engaged and remind him he is to mind his own business. At home you need to clean up his act as well.

[MARYDVM]

I would say that the root cause here is that Jaxom has fun being a bully. In each incident he has picked on a dog that was frightened and gave way to his obnoxious behavior. If he had been my dog he would have gotten more than a pop on the collar to remind him that unprovoked attacks are totally unacceptable. My guess is that he is anywhere from 16 months to 2 years of age, and is testing his limits in typical adolescent fashion. It is time to seriously tighten up on all aspects of his behavior - I'm sure there are other "minor" problems as well. I doubt treats and toys are going to be much help. It's time for bootcamp.

[LORHEL]

Just wanted to say about the part in class.....I cannot emphasize, how important it is, that you be aware of dogs that are in front of yours and behind yours, at every moment.

I know its hard to do, but these things should not happen in class....unless you are in a puppy class, which socializing is encouraged, then you do not let your dog sniff noses, with another, nor do you let them "play around". Some people in my class were doing this, and not only does it get the other dogs around them excited, but there are some dogs, mine included,who do not appreciate having their space invaded.

I know people have the best intentions, but the fact is, not all dogs get along. Obedience work is about you and your dog. Unfortunately, alot of folks don't always watch their dogs every move, and prevent the sniffing, etc.

Just a heads up. It happened to us in class, and it happens all the time.

You need to focus on you and your dog, have your dog's favorite treat with you, and use the "watch me" or "leave it" command.


The signs are there, watching is the hard part...

:D :D

[Sharon Marples]

It also sounds as if Jaxom is ready for some NILIF activity. He needs to look up to you more, you need to be the alpha in his life. Not to say you are not, but if he is at the age where his hormones are starting to kick in, and if he is picking on female dogs, then you've got to take him down a notch or two.

You can do a search on this site for NILIF, read what is says carefully and start Jaxom on this program. He needs to know that when you say something you mean it!

By the way, how old is he? Is he neutered or not? Do you have any plans to show him in any activity (obedience, agility, breed)?

Good luck with him,

Sharon

[Wrath]

The incedent with the weimaraner happened before class, during the period of time where everyone is just arriving and EVERYONE's dog is making the rounds greeting. I do NOT allow him to approach other dogs during class when we are working...it's a distraction to him and other dogs. Even when resting between exercises I demand that his focus is on me...which is something that he's pretty good about and getting better as we go along. This is the 3rd class we've been to, we did a puppy class with him, but we had very little play time and socialization...something that I felt unconformtable about long before I learned enough to know what a missed opprotunity it was. We then did a basic obedience class with the same trainer which ended up being pretty much the same thing, just working on the basic behviors we learned during puppy class. There are 2 dogs in class with him now that were also in the same puppy and basic classes, so he's familiar with them and often greets them when we meet up every week for class. Generally no problems there, although he desperately wants to wrestle with Annie, the female yellow lab. I don't allow it because I can tell that he'd just end up playing too rough with her...it's very evident in his manner.

As far as age, he's soon to be 11 months and currently uneutured. I have no doubt that hormones could be contributing a great deal to these new behaviors, but I'm a firm believer in behavior behing primarily constructed from conditioned responses and cannine instincts and drives. I would like to pursue training to the limit of his potential, probably in obedience and utilitly competion, possibly agility (though he is a bit of a lug) Conformation, I think he has enough cosmetic faults to really keep him from doing well, but I've held off on having him neutured parly in the hopes that someone with more experience and impartialness can give him a good evaluation and help me determine if he might be suitable to compete in that area as well.

I've seen plenty of other dogs behave in public and at the club behave as badly, most often worse than the few incedents we've had with him. There was a dog in another class the other night (a boxer I believe) that bit the instructor (deep enough to require medical attention) during an examination and then promptly turned and bit the owner. This week he was muzzled. I really respect because to me that indicates that this club isnt' going to turn away a dog that DESPERATELY needs professional training...they'll just take the necessary precautions and do what they can to correct the behavior. There have been incedents where Jaxom growled at other dogs that were obviously instigating him, and other incedents with dogs that were jumping and slavering at the ends of their leads trying to get at him and he was completely aloof and calm. There has never been an altercation that resulted in actual contact of any kind, just a lot of show and bluff and there has always been a bevy of warning signs that lead up to it.

We did sitting stays for examination and the GSD sitting next to us repeatedly tried to engulf the trainers hand in it's jaws as he tried to place a hand on the top of it's head. Jaxom was approached, sniffed the hand offered, and gave it one tiny lick on the way up...very solid about being approached and handled by strangers, all while sitting next to the same dog that he'd early barked and lunged at. I can't get a handle on that, bark and lunge at the same dog while heeling, but sitting next to it while a stranger approaches to handle him and he's completely benign.

This basically is what I feel si the root of the problem, he's not had the chance to interact with enough dogs to learn how to behave around them. He's young and awkward and staring to have powerful hormones raging through his system, prompting strange and unusal behaiors. Is viewing him casually approaching dogs as a warning sign and completely isolating him from interaction really the way to improve this sort of behavior? I can't accept that. How is he supposed to get better around dogs if he's never allowed to interact with them?

Back to my original question which still hasn't really been answered...what warning signs could I have overlooked. Is calmly approaching a dog and sniffing muzzles in a seemingly friendly fasion actually dangerous behavior? Jaxom generally plants his nose firmly in the rump of dogs (and usually people) as a greeting, so should I have been suspicious that his nose was investigating the wrong end. Is there a way to allow him to interact with other dogs without being tense and keeping him on a tight leash (possibly CAUSING aggressive behavior) and yet still maintain enough control that if he does suddenly decide to snap, I can get him away deftly enough that no damage is done.

There isn't a question in the household about 'pack' structure and Jaxom is a definitly a solid 3rd, under my wife and I but comfortabley above Dee, the ferrets, and various fish. Blaming natural dog behvior on dominance issues due to lack of a strong alpha figure in the household is a poor excuse in my opinion, I feel it's actually a lack of understanding on our parts of what makes dogs tick and learning how to modify our interaction and training with them to get the behaviors that we deem acceptable. It's the main reason I'm so fascinated with dog training and dog phsycology, because it's so intrinsicly different from our own learning process.

I'm familiar with NILF and incorporate a lot of it into everyday life. You want petting, you have to sit. You want food, you have to get in your crate and calmly wait until I put it down for you to eat. You want to go outside, you have to wait at the open doorway until I tell you it's okay to go. I dont' see how that applies to unexpected behavior, I can apply correction after the fact but whitout understanding the causes, I can't effectively prevent the behavior unless I completely avoid any situations with the possiblity of it occuring. In my mind, that's not really training. It would be akin to keeping your dog chained up outside 24/7 and saying he's housebroken because he's never pooped on the living room carpet. Bah, my dog deserves better from me.

Enough babbling from me.

[rottnkidd]

Hi Wrath - I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, and in my earlier response, I was referring to behavior that is expected in the training class setting. I don't know what your future plans are with Jaxom, but assuming you'll be continuing into formal
Obedience, your dogs best behavior is essential! At my training facility, puppies in their 1st class (puppy kindergarten) are allowed a 5 minute on-leash socializing period, within the 1 hour training session. That's it! 5 whole minutes! Then it's back to learning how to behave. Once the pup has entered the 2nd pup class, there is no more socialization time. Allowing pups or dogs to sniff each other is out of the question, even when entering the building, and firm reprimands are given to those who don't comply. Our dogs are not allowed to sniff at dogs in ex-pens either. The whole point of this is discipline. If Jaxom had sniffed a female's butt, I'm surprised he didn't get nailed but good! My girl wouldn't tolerate that for a second! Should you go on to show in the Obedience ring, your dog will have to be on his best behavior. Anything considered even close to aggression and they'll be showing you the door.
I would certainly think your intact 11 mo old is feeling his oats, but that's still not an excuse for his behavior. You have to pay close atttention to what's going on around you. If you see he's
focusing in on a dog, immediately interrupt his notion with a good, quick pop and tell him to "leave it", praise him if he does, and get on with getting his attention on you. What kind of training collar are you using?
As for dog socialization, I sought out people that enjoyed similar activities that aren't necessarily training-related. People who enjoy walking, hiking, etc.
How is Jaxom in your neighborhood? Does he get out often for walks where he can see other dogs out walking? How does he react to them?
Also, try and work him out a bit before class. You don't want him so tired that he'll be snoring in class (lol), but this may help calm him a bit if he's had some good exercise prior to class.
Have you considered taking another class? Keep the Obedience training ongoing, but maybe an agility or tracking class? These
are fun things you can do with him, and it will give him a good workout.
Best wishes-
kathy

[Carina43]

I can't add a whole lot, you've had some excellent advice - just a couple of thoughts (speaking from similar limited experience, with two different intact males.)

I think he can still learn to interact very well with other dogs - but for now I would just keep those interactions to known dogs who he plays politely with. In class, including the pre-class social time, just don't allow him to interact. Like others said, don't even let him LOOK at another dog until he's learned manners! Later on, once his poor hormone addled brain has calmed down a bit and he's better behaved, he can earn his playtime.

Cooper was a terrible bully at that age, despite pretty much ongoing classes and constant socialization from puppy K on - worse than your guy for a while. It took lots of work to get him well mannered (at a little over two now, he's not perfect but certainly very manageable.) If I had been stricter with him around ALL other dogs when he was going through this stage, I think it would have been much easier, but it was my first time dealing with this behaviour in a male. I was much stricter with Dutch and the behaviour and his manners improved a lot quicker.

He's still got plenty of ways to be social, but until you know he is rock solid around all strange dogs, I wouldn't let him interact one bit....my .02.

[Judi W]

Back again. I'm not going to go over details on same species aggression as we have done quite a few threads on that, but I would like to comment on a few things.

If it were his hormones kicking in, he would be wanting to meet the bitches to make love, - not war. As I said earlier, a dog that attacks bitches, whether known or not, has something awry in his thinking. You might be very alpha at home, but if you have not stopped his bullying of his housemate, he can be seeing that as permission, so on the homefront, you need to stop that behavior. Alpha away from home? Not perhaps as much as you might think or he would not have repeated something you corrected and certainly not so quickly following the first episode. Usually opposite sex interaction is peaceful and complimentary. Within the home, the bitches tell the dog what to do even if they are somewhat soft bitches, and the dogs cheerfully comply. This is mother nature's device so that when mating time comes around, the bitches will welcome the dogs.

Dog school. KPT is designed to have a certain amount of socialization. As an instructor, anything beyond KPT is for training in obedience and especially in a class, we need to keep to the subject at hand. Do not blame the class for not continuing baby stuff for your dog's lack of canine manners. I do not want my class dogs interacting or frolicing with one another prior to class because it carries over to the dogs focusing on one another rather than their handler. This is particularly true in the lower level classes where the dog does not yet have enough training to change its focus from play to work. I also don't want it done on my clock as we have much to do. Sometimes students whose dogs are congenial with one another will decide to spend a bit of time after class or to make dates to let their dogs play another day. That's fine as it is their own time and does not take away from the training.

What to do?
Number 1, forbid him to behave in a bullying manner towards his housemate. Although the poor little thing might accept it (what other choice does she have?) that encourages his misbehavior and makes him think it is OK as far as you are concerned. Make sure you message to him is clear and firm.

Number 2, use the standard techniques for interupting any "thoughts" he might have about interjecting himself in another dog's space. Again, make sure he understands that minding his own business is not optional. It doesn't matter what the other dogs are doing or not doing.

Sorry you have to deal with this, but it is something that can be done and with clear messages from you shouldn't be too difficult. Dog aggression is certainly easier to deal with than people aggression.

[MontanaRott]

Judi that is some great advice and really good points. There are a couple of things with Guerin, through this thread, I can see could have been a problem. But now because we know better, we will do better. I particularly like the point of not letting them goof before class! Guerin does socialize and get a little playful before class, and it takes a time or two to get him to pay close attention in class. Now we know keep him focused. There is plenty of time AFTER class to let him be the social butterfly he wants to be.
And we are working on the watch me, as was mentioned in another thread. That is a great idea and will be invalualbe as he matures and the hormones come into play.
As you know we have no plans to neuter until he hits two, as per the breeders instructions and good advice here. We strive to be smart responsible owners, we keep him busy with play and work, discourage bad behavior and encourage the good. Through this forum we have learned so much! We have made mistakes in the past but with the knowledge so readily and instantly accessable here, we will come through this and end up with a pup that will make us proud at home and in the ring. Thanks again to all of you who so quickly respond to those of us who want to learn, and do the right thing by these great dogs.