NEED Experienced ADVICE on Puppy Biting, Snapping and Growling

[samanthac]

Hi there. I need some advice. Disel is now 9 weeks old and has settled in like a trooper over the last two weeks. I just had him eval'd this past weekend and he passed with flying colors. Very impressed with his confidence and recovery. Good prey drive, good tolerance of pain. All around nice stable temperament. He did EXCELLENT in the scent pad...tested him for 5 minutes and he was still going strong. Focus and intensity were excellent! Picking up basic commands and focus training VERY quickly. Tested him with other dogs and he did very well. Does very well with new people and strange situations. Everyone who has seen/eval'd him is just absolutely blown away by his conformation, drive and temperament even at this young age.

However I need some advice from some of the more experienced on this list. The one thing I have a problem with is constant biting, snapping and growling at both me and my husband. Now, I KNOW he is a puppy and I know he is playing and feeling his oats so to speak. And I am more than willing to let him be a puppy. But I don't appreciate and will not tolerate being shredded constantly. But none of the traditional methods are working!

He does not seem to like to be corrected...which I really didn't expect he would. He is extremely mouthy, which I don't have a
problem with, I just don't want it to be on me. I scruff him just and then give him a toy to try to distract him and teach him the acceptable thing to chew. Problem is, that it is not working. I scruff him and he comes right back at me growling and snapping. Fine, no big deal, I scruff him again. He whines, ignores the toy and comes at me again and growling and teeth. SO, at that point I just pick him up and put him in his ex-pen and ignore him.

In addition, I've tried thumping the end of his snout to get his attention, I've tried 'btiing' him back...obviously only enough to let him know it does not feel good, stamping my foot to get his attention or diverting his attention with a little focus training. I've also tried yelling OUCH VERY LOUDLY, but that does not work either. I puy him on his side or back and stroke him until he clams down and then he gets up and comes back for more.

I am VERY careful about posture and using a firm tone, I am very careful to make sure he does not see my corrections as a game. I have an excellent trainer who is experienced with Rotts. My breeder is also quite a knowledgeable and I can lean on her as well. I am very lucky to have such a strong support system, however I want some different perspective as well.

He is a SUPER boy (I absolutely LOVE his personality) and I am SURE this situation is due to MY lack of expereince with a high-drive boy like this...also its been literally 22 years since I have had a puppy around, and never one of this caliber!

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Rott-Wiley]

Well, I can't say that you are doing anything wrong with him and he does sound like he's a great puppy. And he is just that, a puppy and this is the age that they are terrible about biting. I wouldn't be too quick to put him in his x-pen if it were me. I would more often sit down with him and put him on his back in my lap and talk to him about how bad he is being. If he does bite then, continue with what you were doing with the "Very Loud Ouch"

Another fact I should mention is that he normally would have learned some bite inhabition during the 7 and 8th week of development from his littermates and mother and I see he was with you during one of those weeks so that is going to make that training just a little harder on your part.

Maybe if you got him a juicy meaty beef bone, that would also give him something to take out that bitting chewing on and wouldn't hurt you in the process. Bones are usually a real high value to pups. Best of luck with him, I'm sure he'll come around.

[DNeff]

I would not be physically scruffing/thumping/yelping with this puppy at all. From what you decribed he wants attention and play. To him the scruffing and such is just that, attention and play. I realize you are trying to avoid it seeming like a game, but it's still giving him the attention he is seeking, even though it is negative attention. Each time you scruffing him you are giving him what he is going for. I would also attempt to redirect him to a toy without scruffing him. Does that work? Make the toy as appealing as possible and take yourself out of the equation.

When he does make contact with your skin, biting and such, freeze, give him a hard stare and calmly pick him up place him in his crate and leave him there for about ten minutes.

I would also recommend tons of interactive toys, kongs, buster cubes, stuffed bones, hide and seek toys/treats, hand feeding all meals, scattered kibble to search for, etc.... This guy even though he is young needs work, just keep it simple and easy.

Dawn
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[samanthac]

Also, I forgot to mention that my 6 year old rescue came to us with no bite inhibitionat all at 2.5. We managed to train that out of her to the point that if you try to put your hand in her mouth she will literelly spit it out.

[Beckysmom]

Agree with Dawn's ideas in general.

other ideas:

if you can leave him where he is and go out of room shutting door on him and leave him for even 20 to 30 seconds, it may be more effective than crate--because getting picked up and placed in crate may also be rewarding.

something on your skin or clothes like vinegar or bitter apple that he hates so that he gets an immediate correction from the activity itself?

If you are usin the "OW" method, the idea is to get successively softer and softer mouth--this means consistency and deliberate training sessions in general.

An arm guard to protect yourself, in meantime may be useful. Arm guard with something he hates like bitter apple or whatever he hates may be even more useful.

Puppy class to learn more bite inhibition from his fellow pups.

[legalbeagle]

If you do "yelp", make it sound like a DOG, not a human. I've done that with our puppies and they actually respond better to an animal like noise [I'm good at imitating animal noises - what a thing to be, huh?].

Another method I used for unmitigated chomping by sharp puppy teeth is the grasp the lower jaw with fingers and use thumb under the tongue, and hold slightly. I inserted my thumb into the mouth right under the tongue, and hung onto the lower jaw and said "NO BITE" and then quickly let go. It won't hurt the dog in any way but they realized you could control their mouths and they didn't come over for more of the same.

This method actually works with older dogs too if you're confident enough to grasp the lower jaw, insert thumb under tongue and hang on a few seconds. Dogs use the lower jaw to bite, so you won't get bitten. They'll immediatelly try to twist their heads and get the heck away from you. Make sure they don't take a nip as they flee - :D - and then issue the stern command "NO BITE!" as you hold on. I've never had a dog bite me this way or keep biting me in "play" or for attention after I've done that to them. It also didn't turn them into hand shy dogs, they simply realized that putting their teeth on me ended up with their own jaw being restricted and controlled.

I learned this from a Rottie breeder 25 years ago.

Cathi M.

[YvonneP]

I, too, had this problem with my bitch at a very young age. She started the biting and growling at 9 weeks. She is now 22 months old and still "trys" it. Although now, she will put her mouth on me and just sit there and look at me.

I, too, was like you - trying EVERYTHING! What paid off was persistence!!! He will eventually get the message. I agree with never hitting him. He will only become hand shy or more agressive. My bitch is very dominant and high prey-drive. And, if she can get the message by being firm with NO! or OUCH! or any other word you choose to use (but make sure it's the same one in the same tone), any dog can get the message. I have had 3 other rotties and this one took the cake with training. Believe me!

[samanthac]

Thanks for all the feedback. I spoke to both my breeder and trainer who were able to offer some very good advice.

Disel comes from very strong working lines. He is a VERY dominant boy with VERY high drives even at nearly 10 weeks. I just was not prepared for him testing so early. So, with him not responding to the traditional methods, which some very dominant dogs do not, I had to kick it up a notch.

So, basically what we did is the next time he did this, which was pretty much round the clock for days, we grabbed him by the scruff (a doggy disciplinary action), picked him up off the floor (removes his sense of security) and shook him once yelling NEIN at him very loudly and sternly (this action replicates the one of the ways a dog reprimands a pup...growling instead of yelling of course).

He yelped and cried (which was absolutely heartwrenching), then we put him down and sat on the floor. He came up into our arms, we gave him a very brief (this is important) moment of comfort, just enough to give him a moment to show his submission, and then crated him. His feelings were very hurt and he sulked for a while, and then went to sleep.

We had to do this twice before he got the point, but he did. And, now that he knows that we are not messing around, he is like a completely different dog...much more manageable and pleasant to be around. We established ourselves as alphas and he responded accordingly. Last night he started to get a little out of line and all I had to do was grab his scruff and start lifting and he calmed right down.

Apparently this action is very similar to the way dogs in packs dole out discipline, yet in their case and looks and sounds far more brutal because there are teeth and growling involved.

I LOVE this boy and he has super drive and he is going to be SO fun to work with, but I know he is going to be ONE heck of a challenge getting there. However, I welcome it as it will help to improve my understanding of the breed and also will improve my skills as a trainer!

I am just pleased to say that we got this under control now. Thanks again everyone for your advice!

[YvonneP]

Glad to hear that you got it under control. I didn't have to lift mine off the floor, but the shaking was part of it.

So glad to hear responsible people owning rotts. Too, too many people do not know what they are getting into when they buy that cute little puppy and end up bringing it to the local shelter because they were just not equipped, personality wise, to handle the challenging personalities of the rotts! It makes me so mad! That is why 2 of our rotties are adopted. One was actually left to starve tied to a tree. He is a wonderful big boy. Full of love and affection, but he is high energy! Great contrast to the other male who is a big bear rug! The female sets both of them straight though. She definitely rules the roost!!!

Good luck with him and enjoy the hell out of him.

[samanthac]

Glad to hear that you got it under control. I didn't have to lift mine off the floor, but the shaking was part of it.

LOL! Disel is very headstrong...kinda like his owners! :D

So glad to hear responsible people owning rotts. Too, too many people do not know what they are getting into when they buy that cute little puppy and end up bringing it to the local shelter because they were just not equipped, personality wise, to handle the challenging personalities of the rotts! It makes me so mad!

Amen to that! In my case, I researched pedigrees for 6 years before settling on this litter. I knew exactly what I was getting into...little sucker just caught me off guard! :p

The female sets both of them straight though. She definitely rules the roost!!!

My trainer said this is quite common. He said that 9 times out of 10 the females rule the roost and that even the most dominant boys tend to defer to the 'gals'. His little girl Kira is the biggest soft spot, but she keeps his two males right in check. They DO NOT mess with her. They know better. Shame that human men don't get that lesson! ;)

Good luck with him and enjoy the hell out of him.

Thanks, and beleive me, I will...in between boughts of wanting to strangle him I'm sure :D