Dog Fights - Dunbar's answers

[BostonRott]

I just attended a seminar last week by Drs. Ian Dunbar and Nicholas Dodman pertaining mostly to aggression.

Dunbar made the point that many fights are just snarly fits. You need to analyze the "fight - bite" ratio. If your dog has had 6 fights, but never landed any serious bites or sent another dog to the hospital, then there is hope for counter-conditioning, desensitization, classical conditioning and resolution of the situation.

If two household dogs have had a fight and one or both have gone to the hospital, you need to either permanently separate them, and this may mean COMPLETE isolation from each other.........ie. never seeing each other, no eye contact, etc, or you need to place one. The chances of training / rehab working with them are basically slim to none.

I know this question has come up frequently on the board, thought I'd post what I'd learned. :)

[TrishB]

I attended a seminar with Dr. Dunbar years ago. I've always respected his work. His approaches and understanding of what it means "to the dog", and putting them in human terms is a real eye opener.

Thank you for sharing this information with us. :) It's a very interesting approach to understanding what you can and can't change.

[sophie's-mom]

Originally posted by BostonRott
The chances of training / rehab working with them are basically slim to none.

Bummer :(

[BostonRott]

Those of us who have lived through a truly serious dog fight knew this already, and I know I've said it many times. Nice to hear it from one of the nation's top behavior experts.

As much as we love our dogs, they are DOGS, not people and the problem comes in with too much anthropomorphization, and the belief that you can make dogs like each other. Not all people like each other, neither do all dogs.

[LORHEL]

EXCELLENT tips for us who aren't as experienced, (me me me) with this... ;) Thank you very much!!

Its a constant battle in the neighborhood and I refuse to give up, when I am not in the wrong, walking my dog, and minding my own business, and we get approached by loose dogs.

I do have one of those "talkers" and bluffers, so maybe we do have hope in that sense.

[BostonRott]

Dunbar's big theme was "throw out the food bowl." Stop wasting valuable enforcement (food) as a free meal.

When you go on your walk, have his food ration in a bag with you. Every time you appraoch another dog, before you get within his reactivity range, feed him. He will soon learn " O Good, a cookie dog!" Other dogs = food, as long as he is calm. You don't have to ask him to ignore them, not make eye contact, just be calm and behaved. Start farther away, and work closer.

Perhaps start in a park, where you could sit on a bench at some distance. Dog free on leash, dog comes by, you feed. After several sessions, move closer and work the same thing. Then return to walks in your neighborhood. You can use either a clicker or a word (Yes!) to signal reward is coming, but having a definite marker of reward will help. Also, a marker of non-reward (Ut oh!) helps signal an inappropriate behaviour. No punisher, simply no reward. Leave the situation, and start again.

Ivan Balabanov has an EXCELLENT tape called Obedience with Confusion. It talks a lot about the systems of reward/punishment that are typically used, and the methods that Ivan uses instead. It is geared towards competitive obed (specifically SchH), but the ideas are clearly explained and are excellent for every-day use. Also, it's all based on opperant conditioning and sound scientific principal.

[Carina43]

Oh, good news and bad news! I love Ian Dunbar, would love to go to one of his seminars....The food distractor thing worked wonderfully with Cooper...so much so that when we approach a (large male) strange dog and I give him the warning AH AH he whirls around and looks for a treat, forgetting all about the other dog. It's a great technique.

But I'm with Sophie's mom on the "oh bummer", since I have two males who can't stand the sight of the other. Two fights, and actually no vet visits, but they each managed to land a couple of good bites in, and if I hadn't broken them up (which is really scary) I'm not sure how it would have ended up. I don't want to take a chance finding out either.

[rasmy]

Thanks for this useful information, this is the best time to read this post, as I posted a thread on the chit chat corner regarding my dog being dog aggressive.

Thanks

[valdes43]

Originally posted by BostonRott
Ivan Balabanov has an EXCELLENT tape called Obedience with Confusion.

It's "Obedience Without Conflict" :D

Thanks for the Dunbar info. ;)

[MARYDVM]

Must be a Freudian slip - obedience with confusion is what 95% of pet dog owners practice.

[BostonRott]

Hahahaha, o dear! Yes Mary, you're quite right, that's an entirely funny title. I think I had meant to write "without." I'm still laughing, the idea of a class entitled "Obedience With Confusion" is just too funny! :D

[wrottdog]

QUOTE: You need to analyze the "fight - bite" ratio. If your dog has had 6 fights, but never landed any serious bites or sent another dog to the hospital, then there is hope for counter-conditioning, desensitization, classical conditioning and resolution of the situation.

I can't figure out how to do a quote correctly, but here is my question: What is the significance of SIX fights? My girls have had FOUR with no serious injuries. Does this info appear in Dunbar's writing? I'd like to know more about what he means by "counter-conditioning, desensitization, classical conditioning and resolution of the situation."

Thank you for sharing this info.

[BostonRott]

The number is not significant, it was an example. If your dog is having lots of fights, but no damage, the dog most likely has good bite inhibition and is able to be rehab'd. If your dog has sent several others to the hospital, that's a problem.

6 fights, no hospital, not unworkable
4 fights, 2 with serious bites, big problem

It's not the number of fights, but the way they have come out. "Fight to bite ratio"

The rest of it refers to classic behaviour theory. You'd be better to grab a good book and read up on it.

[wrottdog]

Can you recommend a good book?

[BostonRott]

How Dogs Learn is excellent. :)