behavior problem- aggression

[kathleen]

I’m Connie. I have a 17 month old neutered male Rottie. I love Luther greatly and will not give him up. I’m committed to doing everything needed to raise him responsibly. I did not know enough to research this wonderful breed so I have scrambled for the last 15 months to learn as much as I can. I hired behaviorists recommended by the obedience school, sent Luther 5 days a week to day care thru 11 months of age, read books and attended classes for puppy, agility and obedience. Luthers pedigree is full of Shutzhund, and I brought Luther home when He was 6 ½ weeks old. I now have some understanding of what this implies. He was very mouthy as a puppy; I thought I had an alligator for a while. Luther eventually learned good bite control but it took some time. Luther is a smart dog and has learned a lot, however I have 3 main concerns at this time. 1) Getting and keeping his attention with distractions. 2) Aggression with dogs and strangers, especially men, and 3) high prey drive. The behaviorists I’ve worked with are very positively oriented, the obedience school and day care tell me I can’t be too tough on him. I use a prong or pinch collar and I can be tough if it’s appropriate. I’m confused. I’m looking for resources, advice and mentoring. Help!

[lblax]

it looks to me maybe you have a true working rottweiler from working lines i think if i were you instead of trying behavorist i think you should get him some serious work to do schutzhund ect. agility you got a highly driven dog that without work and a way to channel his drives can be all but impossible to live with

[Beckysmom]

Could you be more specific in regard to the three problem areas? What level of aggression (a growl or someone has been sent to hospital?), toward whom (men who are strangers? relatives? etc.), and what has already been tried? Prey drive: is he chasing squirrels or killing the neighbors' cats, or not safe around kids on bikes?

Attention with distractions... again, is this in obedience class while on leash? Or trying to do agility trials? Or at a dog park? what level of distractions, when, and what has been tried so far. And incidentally this may be best put under the "training" forum, as it is probably more a training than behaviour issue.

[Rott-Wiley]

Hi Kathleen, that sounds a lot like the girl I'm working with right now except she's 21 months old. He's still young, kinda like a teenage boy :( Wow! No attention span what so ever! Are you currently working him in obedience? That will help a lot. Also if you can find a way to channel some of that energy. Maybe a game of fetch in the back yard? Good luck with him.

[LORHEL]

I'm not a big expert here, but it does sound like you definitely have a dog with high drives, you mentioned coming from a SCH family, that there speaks volumes...;) However, I am really disappointed, (for you)that they let him go that early.

Like you said, many important things were not taught by the dam, but by you instead... and the most important is that bite inhibition...:( I am glad to see you are committed to your boy, and I am sure with the right direction, and stimulation, he can be happy, doing whatever you decide to do...

How much have you socialized him, especially during those first few months.... I am guessing you are not married since you mentioned he has problems with men?? I would set up as many positive encounters as you can, such as with brothers, family members, friendly strangers... get him used to all kinds of people, sights sounds, etc... Maybe you can go to someone's door, you know, (male) have them step out, after friendly greetings.... and make him sit politely for a treat, etc... little things like that... or have a visitor over, maybe he could establish a close relationship with a good male friend, brother, whatever...


We had a male pup who had a very bad beginning, part of it was our lack of socializing him during the most important months... we too made the mistake of not researching, and also got our male about the same time as yours... at his puppy class, he had a terrible experience, and it scarred him against men at that point, except those he knew very well. (There were many other issues, but I am trying to stick with your boy)

The high drives, can be met though physical and mental stimulation... he needs lots of exercise, not just chasing a ball here and there... walks, running, playtime..games..fetch..etc..

Obedience classes are good, but I don't know about the doggie daycare, can you explain that a bit more?

Also explain anything else, I would be glad to give you more feedback... High drive is not bad, it just needs channeled, so the dog is stimulated. ;)

[LynnS]

Hi Connie

I am not sure how helpful this will be but I will try - We also have a puppy that comes from working lines and she is sweet but a handful!!! Although he has NEVER demonstrated aggression towards a human (prob because she thinks they are pez dispensers) She has acted out with other dogs and goes insane over things like kid bouncing basketball (and I do mean insane) - My husband is against Schutzhund ( I prob mispelled that) which is a shame - not that she would be some super star it's just an ideal venue to work. So I am left to ob and possibly agility - and tons of play - She is a smart cookie but has a lot of attitude - no question she will continue to be a challenge - I had to change MY attitude a bit and learn to channel that drive as much as possible (and like you this is all new to me) - That's in addition to a NILIF approach - She is only 10 mnths old so check back with me in a year - I may feel differently LOL - I think Larry is correct that you MUST work this guy in some capacity - Our girl can be a sweet cuddly bear but that is only one tenth of what she is made of...

[lblax]

this this is just my opinion and i may be full of you know what.. but ive always felt that the majoriaty of people on these forums that have questions about and have behavioral problems with there dogs actually have a real rott from working lines when most people actually just set out to have pets and a dog that has high drives and an attitude unknowingly gets written of as having behavioral problems. let me tell you a strong working dog that is in a strickly pet home can be more than a handfull they can be complete monsters!!!!!!!! lol

[Judi W]

Well, if you have not dumped the doggy daycare, please do so. An adolesent male needs structure and training, not running with a dog pack which is all doggy daycare is and might very well have stimulated your dog aggression problem.

You can never do too much obedience training. If he is dog aggressive he will not be welcomed in agility where multiple dogs are working on equipment on the same field. You need to get him under control first and then you can consider it.

Tracking would be good. A ScH club if you have a good one available. Training should be active and positive, but not passive where his misbehavior is concerned. You need to let him know when he is out of bounds. If you wring your hands and say "oh dear, what shall I do" or "I sure wish he wouldn't act that way" all is lost. Take the lead and take command and start requiring him to have some responsibility for his actions. That same thing applies to his threatening strangers that are posing no danger whatsoever. Socialization is fine, but you can't do much of that if he ignores your instructions and fires off at people. He must listen and follow your lead.

All this is perfectly doable. Stick with your dog trainers. They are the ones who put their money where their mouth is by training and trialing their dogs rather than just talking about behavior. Talk is cheap for those who never get out and pay their dues. It might be fine for a dog that is never expected to leave home, but not good enough for this dog. All that sweetness and light goes right out the window when the dog crosses the line to showing aggression and blowing off your instructions. Your instructions need to be given to the dog BEFORE he is engaged in an emotional outburst.

So, train, train and train some more and mean it. It has been my experience that a change in attitude on the part of the handler does wonders. You explain to the dog that there is only room for one with a 'tude - and that is not going to be him.

[kathleen]

Thank you for all the responses. I live with my boyfriend Darrell and for Luthers first year Darrells 18 y.o. son. I also have a son who is 23 and does not live with us, but visits frequently. I socialized Luther by visits to day care, Pet co, Discount Pet Supply, Dog Shows and events and Community events. I’m now beginning to believe I gave day care way too much credit in socializing Luther. At day car Luther was allowed to play with the other dogs until He became too rough – at about 7-8 months of age. I stopped taking him at about 10 months. I don’t think Luther and I really bonded until I stopped taking him. Luther has never been a big Lover- He’s always preferred to play- his way of getting close is to allow me to hold his rawhide chew for him. Luther is also very verbal- he play growls a lot, at first I didn’t understand this, I thought he hated me. I now realize he’s quite a talker. Luther has a big red ball we play soccar with and he just absolutely loves this- almost as much as Tug o War. When walking Luther would bark and lunge at other dogs in fenced yards- this is better now with a “ leave it “ command and a sit or down until he is collected. It is best to hit him with these before he reacts. At obedience classes he will focus on male dogs, excitable dogs and small dogs. If one of these dogs is doing a recall and begins to run Luther might lunge toward it. He has lunged snapped at dog Luther thought was going after his treat. The “leave it” command works well with these too. He would not go to my son or boyfriend when in their hunting clothes- he acted like he did not know them- growling and backing up. We had a friend over who did not take the time to get to know Luther and he growled at him and backed away. In obedience classes with many other dogs Luther gets very distracted and excited watching and focusing on just about anything but me. When I work to get his attention he gets mouthy and chews on his leash and growls at me, has even lifted his lip. I do my best to keep him busy with his attention always focused on doing something. I usually tell him “NO” and make him do something to get past the moment.

[Judi W]

If you reflect just a bit, this behavior should not be a surprise. At the age when he needed to be learning manners and respect, his self image was being formed by running in a dog pack. Any Rottweiler, even soft ones, left to determine their own status within a dog pack are going to be quite elevated due to their size and strength. So his attitude towards life has been left to how many dogs he could push around - and that likely was all of them.

Lesson learned I hope. You cannot abrogate the raising of a dog either to other people or certainly not to a gang of other dogs. Raising a good dog requires the investment of the owner's time and effort.

[Grendl]

Luther sounds like a candidate for the Nothing In Life is Free program, if you are not already practicing this. If you are unfamiliar with this, please do a search on the Forum which will direct you to specific information about the NILF program. It is very helpful! My bitch has alot Luther's qualities, so I understand what you are experiencing.

[kathleen]

Judi Thank you for your response and knowledgeable perspective. I sent Luther to day care every day thinking I was doing the right thing by him – keeping him around other people and dogs when I would be away at work. I would never have guessed I was actually sending him to learn/reinforce aggressive behaviors. WOW! I wish I was aware of this site then. Again thank you. I am willing to put the time in that I will need to work thru these things with Luther I’m just not sure what the best course of action is. Do you know any good trainers in the South West Michigan area? Any other thoughts and advice will be greatly appreciated. Connie

[kathleen]

Grendl Thank you for your response. I will do the search and check out the NILF program. I really appreciate knowing there are others out with similar situations. In obedience classes I have felt at times like the only one dealing with these issues. I love my Luther and I know what a good boy he can be I just wish others would have the opportunity to see it as well. Again any other thoughts, advice and perspective greatly appreciated. Connie

[Rott-Wiley]

The best thing you can do with Luther now is to continue working with him in obedience class. He needs to learn that he should que off of you and follow your lead in his actions. Working with him is the only way he will learn that. He is still young enough that this should not be a major problem but it is much easier to train new behavior then it is to correct already learned. Good luck with him.

[Judi W]

This is fixable, but you do see how the daycare might have contributed to his thinking pretty highly of himself.

Train and train. Firm and fair, but don't be apologetic to him when you have to "explain" things a little firmly. Others will see the good dog eventually.