Do any of you purposely influence your dogs' social order?

[Mitsy]

In other words, do you help arrange who is and remains the top of the dog pack (other than humans)?
I do this with my group, trying to keep my old queensland top dog, first when Jake came on the scene, years ago, he was so food aggressive, toy jealous, etc. we worked to keep Shilo 'alpha dog', now I am trying to do this with Ginger, who is very dominant. With Shilo's advancing age I don't want Ginger running ragged over her. Shilo holds her own, even though she is smaller and quite blind.
Just curious if anyone else practices this.

[spidey]

There are other threads on this topic, as well, if you search. :)

IMO, it's a bad idea. I don't feel that humans are capable of understanding the subtleties of pack dynamics anywhere near enough to do so effectively or accurately (and therefore safely). I far prefer to let the dogs sort it out themselves under supervision, because I feel that trying to influence it is just more likely to make the dogs frustrated, and thereby make any disagreements more likely to cause damage. I don't have a problem with reinforcing the order the dogs have set themselves, but I don't agree with trying to impose my version of "how it should be" on them, because "how it should be" is going to be determined by the dogs themselves whether I want it to be or not (older dogs may need extra attention, and may need to be protected from younger dogs, but I don't think they need to be alpha, nor do I think you can force them to be alpha if they're not). No matter how many times you insist that dog A is alpha to dog B, that won't make dog A actually alpha to dog B if dog B is alpha to dog A in terms of personality and demeanour. Who becomes "alpha dog" is determined by the personality of each dog in the pack, not by outside forces - no matter how much you may want one dog to be dominant to another, that won't change if it actually is dominant to the other, if you see what I mean. And I think that trying to force dog B to be beta to dog A (when he's really alpha to dog A) just makes it more likely that dog B will seek to prove his dominance in far more severe ways than he might if you just accepted that dog B was the alpha. I think it creates far more stress between the dogs than there would be otherwise. In the wild, the pack order is not determined by the alpha dogs, they only care that the other dogs know they're alpha, and the rest of the pack sorts it out with the dogs immediately up and down the chain of command from them, so I don't feel it's in the dogs' makeup to be able to respond effectively to outside influences in this regard. Just my opinion.

[Mitsy]

I understand what you are trying to say. If Shilo hadn't been naturally dominating, I doubt anything I did would have made a difference, and perhaps my idea of what I'm doing is not changing or rearranging the order but enforcing allowable behavior patterns between them, like 'no stealing treats, or toys or domineering all the food bowls'.

Jake doesn't even try to oust Shilo in anything, even though he tried at first, but Ginger does try, and I encourage Shilo to stand up for herself, which she does willingly.

[spidey]

my idea of what I'm doing is not changing or rearranging the order but enforcing allowable behavior patterns between them, like 'no stealing treats, or toys or domineering all the food bowls'.

This makes good sense, I misunderstood what you meant. :) As I said, I agree with reinforcing the order they set for themselves, just not with trying to artifically impose an order on them, and I very much agree with enforcing manners and a "no bullying policy" as you're doing.

Out of curiosity, how do you encourage Shilo to stand up for herself? (I have this image of chanting cheerleading "go Shilo! go Shilo!", and I'm pretty sure that's not accurate ;) )

[Mitsy]

LOL

Here's a couple of examples:

If two dogs are playing tug o' war or doing the chase-around, if we say 'get em Jake!, or 'pull Shilo!', that dog will start winning the contest, reverse the name, the other one will prevail.

Ginger will stumble over Shilo and get a doggy scolding, which starts Ginger in a teasing fit .When Ginger is doing the bounce, dance and bark routine around my sightless ghost dog, I say 'Shilo, get Ginger!' she'll give chase in whatever direction she thinks Ginger is, and Ginger stops the nonsense.

Yes, it is sort of a cheeleading thing, come to think of it. :D

But, you are right, i was mistaking pecking order change for just training to behave nicely.