growling and nipping at my 2 year old

[Juddwantasuperj]

Some of you already now the story with Apache. Well my 2 year old loves Apache. But when apache is lying on the floor chewing on his bone, Kyle loves to play with him. he will lay on Apche and pet him. He doesnt really try to take his bone though. I keep telling him to get off or be nice and taking him off the dog. Well last night he nipped my son and tonight he growled at him and snapped at him. I keep telling my wife that the kids should leave Apache alone when chewing on his bone. Is this normal behavior or something that we can correct with training?

[alexav]

Is this the same dog that growled and bit you? If he has no respect for you, he certainly won't for a two year old.

I am deeply concerned about this situation and I feel strongly that you should NOT allow a two year old to "play" with a dog that has posessive issues ESPECIALLY when he has a high value object to "protect". Allowing a child to "lay" on any dog is asking for trouble. It would only take a second for a serious injury to occur even if it is just the dog jumping up because the doorbell rang.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this just plain scares me...

[RottiMomCT]

Originally posted by Juddwantasuperj
Is this normal behavior or something that we can correct with training?

For the kids or for the dog?

YES, normal behavior for the dog when he/she feels threatened! But, acceptable - HELL NO!

How would you like it if you were playing with a toy and someone wanted to lay on you or roll on you? Not fun, eh?!!

Absolutely correctable with training - for the child and the dog. Under no circumstances should the child be rolling on the floor with the dog or otherwise at the dogs level where the child can/will be perceived as an equal.

For the dog - take away bones and other toys until dog can chew them without fear of being bugged by the kids - crate would be an option.

How old is Apache?? Get into training ASAP so he knows the rules of the house. Set up a consistent routine that ALL must follow in regards to Apache and if the kids can't follow the rules, theydn't get to play with the dog, simple as that.

I understand it's hard to train a 2 yr old to stay away from the dog when he's got a chew toy, but it's easier to train the kid than explain to the ER personnel what happened when Kyle needs stitches on his hand or face because he would not leave the dog alone.

Bottom line - no bones or toys when the kids are in the room until they learn to respect the dog and leave him alone when he's got a chew toy/bone. Do not set the dog up to fail (bite) by leaving the kids and dogs together when the dog has a chew toy or bone. It's not fair to the dog or the kids...and make sure your wife knows this too :D

Tell her that your homeowners insurance will either skyrocket or you'll get dropped like a hot potato if you have a rottie bite on record, and you'll probably never be able to insure anything! Worked for a friend of mine!!! Not to mention the physicall and emotional scars from a bite and the mandatory quarantine! NOT FUN for anyone!!

[Judi W]

Yes, there is a problem with the dog. Yes there is a problem with the parenting. If your child is stepping out into traffic, you don't just "keep telling him" not to do so, you go and get him and then take steps to see that he does not put himself in danger again. When you have a dog that you know will bite, make sure that child is not ever on the floor with the dog period. I don't see normal behavior from anyone. Protect your child, make sure your dog is safe or keep him away from the child. If you choose to be bitten yourself, I guess that is your choice, however to allow the child to be bitten knowing in advance of the danger is neglect.

[spidey]

Allowing a child to "lay" on any dog is asking for trouble.

I agree with what everyone has said, and I quoted the above to emphasise alexav's point. You are lucky your child hasn't been seriously bitten. It would be unreasonable to expect even a good-natured dog to put up with this, let alone one with issues like your dog.

[Rottnlove]

I have a 2 year old as well.

I also agree with all the above.

This is a very scarey situation, but with consistent and proper training of both your child and dog, you should be able to overcome this.

My pup is only 5 months old, and one thing to remember is to never ever let your child lay on the dog! That's just a bite waiting to happen. :(

You need to also work on taking away prized possesions from the dog without any issues. Tell the dog "Drop" or "Out" and show him a yummy treat. Praise him and treat him with the treat as soon as he releases. Also, another good thing to do is reach in his food bowl when he is eating. Just give him some food. Since little kids like to reach in bowls and take things away from dogs, you'll want to make sure to do these things until he can accept people reaching into his bowl and taking things away from him. Have your 2 year old feed him from the hands. My little boy loves to feed my pup. I'm doing this with my pup, and she's doing pretty good. It's a start to child proofing your dog. You also have to teach your kids how to behave around the dog. That is probably the hardest part, especially if you have a 2 year old. They can be very challenging to say the least.

[Greg_1111]

growling, nipping , and snapping teeth are pre cursors to a serious bite. That's how the aggression progresses. It starts with a premise of lack of respect with a sense of dominance (even though the little guy might only weigh 20 lb's). They will incrementally progress the behaviour , each time increasing their confidence, until they go from biting the air around you to biting you. I was lucky to have recognized this fact early on with mine (about 16 weeks). I can still remeber lying in bed eating tortilla chips and hearing this growl, I looked down and there she was, totally peeved that I was ignoring her, eating and not sharing with her lol. I ignored her, and it got more intense, then she bared her teeth and snapped at the air. The next day I phoned a trainer. They came out for a session and put me on the right track. It's all about establishing your place as the dominant being over your dog. This is so important for so many reasons. If your dog accepts you as number one, then training, and obedience are easily achieved. It's the foundation for everything. I know it's a scary thing when your pup growls at you because you know he will soon be a lot larger, and then what. Now is the perfect time to change the program. Actually, the pup will be happier with the load of having to be the boss taken off it's shoulders:)

[Greg_1111]

Give this a read, This will show you the ways to establish dominance. These methods are tried and true. Good luck !

http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

[alexav]

EXCELLENT link Greg_1111!

Being a Chow Chow enthusiast myself I have seen this before and loved it but forgot where I saw it originally. Thank you for posting it.

[Fergy]

Outstanding article Greg_1111. I even e-mailed it to my wife. That's exactly what I've been telling her about our Pomeranian.

[Juddwantasuperj]

Thanks, thats what i thought. I just needed some proof for the wife. I dont think she understands dogs. I also printed that page in the referenced link above.

The reason for concern is that Kyle has played with Apache this way from day one w/o problems. Is this Apache trying too move his way up the Alpha ladder?

I have contacted a local trainer. I am going to have someone come out to the house and help us for a couple sessions then get into a weekly training class.

[alexav]

Originally posted by Juddwantasuperj
Is this Apache trying too move his way up the Alpha ladder?

Yep, and trust me...You don't want him to "try" any harder than he already has.

Glad you have a trainer lined up.

[spidey]

The reason for concern is that Kyle has played with Apache this way from day one w/o problems.

Well, for future reference, this kind of play isn't appropriate. Apache probably put up with it before because he felt he had to due to his perceived position, now that he's older and feeling a bit more full of himself, he thinks he can put a stop to it. Just because he tolerated it before shouldn't lead you to believe that he liked it. I'm glad you're getting a trainer, it's the right thing to do . Good luck. :)

[TrishB]

Originally posted by RottiMomCT
Do not set the dog up to fail (bite) by leaving the kids and dogs together when the dog has a chew toy or bone. It's not fair to the dog or the kids...and make sure your wife knows this too :D

This quote is the one that I agree with the most. You're setting him up for failure. You're putting your dog in a situation that you KNOW he cannot handle (nor should he have to). The only outcome of this is for your dog to fail, and your child to be bitten. If you're comfortable with that, then leave everything as is. :(

If you're NOT comfortable with that, you have 2 tasks ahead of you.
1) Train your dog. He needs to know that NOTHING is his. He only has what you have allowed him to have. This is a potentially serious issue that warrants serious attention. Do a search for "possessive" and read, read, read.
2) Train your child. Your little one needs to know how to play properly with an animal. Sitting on, laying on, etc. is NOT acceptable. Until your child can comprehend that, you are responsible for removing your child from playing with your dog.

Just because it's always been like this, and you've never had a problem, doesn't mean that it's right. Nor does it mean that it isn't GOING to be a problem.

You've already gotten a glimpse of what may happen - act on it now. Save your child, save your dog.

Best of luck!

[Mitsy]

I have heard so many people say 'oh, you can't get near Fido when he's eating (or has a toy)!' and I just shake my head.
I am not a skilled trainer by any means, but I have had great results with my dogs, even the older strays that had very strong alpha/aggression problems, just using some common sense and intuition, I guess.

Your decision to get a trainer involved is something that is so important that I hope it is a done deal already. Do you know what one bite to the face of a two-year old can do?

After my perhaps rustic techniques ( I am learning alot on this forum to be sure) none of my dogs will even curl a lip to us when their food or toys were demanded of them. Taking them away became a game and play for the dogs, with many episodes of interaction every day, lots of praise for good behavior, a swift response if a grumble was heard. We are now working with the kids to be treated in the same manner. Even Harley, my very-much-abused rescue heeler, who still had bite-aggression problems with other people, would let go without a protest to a family member.

Hurry Hurry and get started on this problem, everyone will be so much happier and safer.