Aggressive 7 year old Rottie

[max619]

Let me give you some background first:

Max is a 7 year old intact Rottie with a nice personality. In general he has been a happy dog living with myself (Alpha), my sister (Non-Alpha) and daughter. Max has never been through any training or socialization outside my family and common visitors (my mistake, I now understand) Max has progressively been displaying more Dominant and aggressive behavior.

What Changed in his life:

During the 1st 3 years of Max's life I spent a lot of time with him. Playing, running, etc. Max was a happy and well behaved dog.

4 years ago I started traveling for long periods of time. My sister took care of Max, but 'had to be careful' in situations where I had not needed to.. Max never bit her, but would growl at her occasionally and twice snapped at a stranger while being walked by her.

In June 2002, my sister (Max's primary care giver for several years) moved away and put Max in a Kennel for 40 days until I could come back (I work out of the country) to get him.

When I returned, I found Max in a horrible condition. He was next to death. Ribs showing, no obvious Muscle, and 'very fearful and submissive'. The owner of the Kennel said that Max was a time-bomb and should be put down. They said no one could feed him without him gowling, and no dogs could be in adjacent runs without Max going nuts. (I thought she was crazy..)

Since Max was in such bad condition, I took several weeks off work to help him recover his strength and emotional stability. This was 5 weeks ago, and at this point I'm struggling with 'what is the right thing to do'.

My Problem:

My work requires that I travel, so originally I was looking to give Max to the best possible Owners. Though recently Max has started growling at me, and I'm concerned what liability this might present to someone Max has never met, that tries to establish themselves as his new Alpha / Leader. (I cannot keep Max due to his need to be cared for by a stranger while I am traveling.)

Advice needed:

1) Do you feel that Max could adapt to a new Alpha / Leader with his age and now more Dominant / Agressive behaviour.

2) Are there any organizations that 'retrain' Rotties and place them with new owners?

3) At this age, can Max be retrained to become Omega (Low in the pecking order of a family)

4) Others options you would recommend. :(

Very kind regards and sorry for the length of this thread, but I am hoping to answer most questions in advance.

Eduardo (Max619)

[rottcrazed]

Although I am not an expert by any means, I have been involved in obedience training for 7 years and I think I could offer some advice that some may disagree with, but here goes.....

First of all, your work schedule does not allow you to properly maintain the consistency that Max so obviously requires in his life. Even if you sent him to an animal trainer/behaviorist, you still MUST maintain the level of training that this person might establish and by leaving the country for weeks at a time, that will not allow you to do so.

Re-homing a dog so mistrustful of people is the wrong thing to do without the consultation of a professional trainer/behaviorist first. No person in their right mind would take a dog like this after hearing the full extent of his personality and temperament. No, please don't take that as a personal dig. It was lack of socialization obviously, but there are many other factors involved in creating any dog with such a personality. Ie... genes, temperament he was born with, lack of leadership, his alpha comes and goes and HE doesn't know why.... Perhaps the breeder that you got him from never fully prepared you for what you needed to do in order to make him a well mannered boy.

He had been left intact and has very little training, in the Rottweiler world, that spells trouble. Although I don't know what neutering will do for his personality now, it might calm him down a little. Again, I would talk to a professional (veterinarian too) about this.

Really, the only thing for him in my opinion is re-homing him with an experienced dog handler that can provide him with the proper, consistent care for the rest of his life. Unless you are changing jobs and intend to spend a lot of time with him, you have to do something before he really hurts someone, maybe even you. If he goes to the wrong home (like the first person who says they'll take him), he may end up euthanized too.

Please seek some professional help with him and see if he can be saved. I sure hope he can, but it sounds like he is really fargone.

Kristi
:(

[Storm]

Who knows what has happened to this dog while not in your care? He has been neglected and an appropriate decission should have been made way back, now you have a problem. From what you described the picture of the dog has changed considerably. Re-homing this dog is not a good idea unless with someone with good experience but such people normally have plans or directions for there dogs which are of a specific type. The sad reality is that you don't have time for the dog and due to his disposition it is going to be very hard to find a home. I don't know what organisations are available in your part of the world who are capable of trying to rehabilitate him? Otherwise you must do the humane thing, so very sad that things had to come to this...........:(

[Hudson's Alpha]

Hi,

You have a very difficult situation on your hands, both from a moral and personal perspective. It is obvious from your post that you love this dog, and that you care very much about what happens to him. I wish there were more owners who approached the options for a dog they can no longer keep with such acumen.

The bottom line is you have a 7 year old male that was never properly trained or socialized, was never neutered, and then lost the only effective leader he had in his life - YOU!

I believe that what the kennel owner told you about Max's behavior while boarding there was complete truth. HOWEVER, her response to his aggressive behavior was reprehensible. You do not stop caring for a boarder simply because he is aggressive. You call an emergency contact. You call the vet you work with. You lower food in with a rope if necessary!!! I don't care WHAT creative ideas the kennel operators had to come up with; that dog required MINIMAL care, at the very least - FOOD and WATER, which sounds like he was not properly provided. And if they could not deal with him AT ALL, they had a responsibility to contact SOMEONE for assistance.

As to what your options are at this point; this is such a tough call. If you rehome him with his aggressiveness, which you acknowledge has gotten worse, you are taking on a HUGE liability. Max may bite his new owner, and the fact that you had "perfect knowledge" of such a possibility could land you in court. So what to do?

Max is 7 years old. On the far end, he has about 4 years left, give or take a couple of years depending on what happens with his health. At his age, neutering is not going to affect his aggression; it will assure that he doesn't die from testicular cancer.

This may not be popular, but my GUT feeling is to spend as much quality time with him as you can.....and lovingly send him to the Bridge.....knowing you made a responsible decision for MAX!

Before you decide on ANY course of action, I would DEFINITELY post your situation under "Rottie Rescue". The folks there are specialists in this exact area, and may be an excellent source of information for you.

You have my best wishes. I can tell that this turn of events has become extremeley troubling for you, and I'm so sorry about where you find yourself today.

Please let us know what you decide.

[brunie's mom]

I don't know about other rescues but our rescue would not touch this dog with a 10 foot pole.
He is a liability, why would a rescue take such a dog when there are 10 nice dogs, with no temperment problems waiting to get into rescue???

I agree... if you cannot take care of him and don't have the time for him, then have him euthanized with your loving arms around him.:(
Don't pass him on to someone else where he may be mistreated and passed down again.

Gina

[RottiMomCT]

Originally posted by brunie's mom
I don't know about other rescues but our rescue would not touch this dog with a 10 foot pole.

He is a liability, why would a rescue take such a dog when there are 10 nice dogs, with no temperment problems waiting to get into rescue???

I agree... if you cannot take care of him and don't have the time for him, then have him euthanized with your loving arms around him.:(

Don't pass him on to someone else where he may be mistreated and passed down again.

Gina

I have to agree with you Gina - unfortunately there are alot of dogs with 'issues' and many rescues do not have the resources to deal with them. If rescues take on the 'project dogs' how many easy dogs die in a shelter waiting for rescue? Yes, it is a hard decision for you to make, but re-homing him is a liability for anyone, including you.

[AngelBunny]

max619:

You only have one choice and that is to put Max down.

I'm involved in rescue. There are thousands of Rotties given up every year for many reasons, but there aren't nearly enough people involved in rescue to help. Rescue only has the time and personnel who can help easy dogs, dogs who, with a minimum of time and effort, can be polished into pets.

A dog like Max--poorly socialized, intact, 7 yrs old, and aggressive--isn't material for rescue.

Many people involved in rescue aren't capable of addressing the serious issues a dog like Max has. And if they were, while he's being rehabbed, dogs with no issues are being put down because of the time needed to bring Max around. Then on the other end, the adoption end, many people who adopt from rescue aren't able to deal with a dog like Max. He needs an experienced, knowledgeable home and homes like this typically don't get their dogs from rescue.

Finally, his age--at 7, he's too old for rescue. People adopt puppies and young dogs, not old dogs with behaviorial problems.

I advise against rehoming him. Max is a liability and if he bites someone--and there's a high probability he will, based on what you say--you should expect to be sued.

I'm sorry. What a terrible, awful, heartbreaking lesson you've learned. Poor Max.

[Hudson's Alpha]

Hi Brunie's Mom,

I'm glad that you are involved in Rescue; it is vitally important to all breeds, not just ours. I would say though, that while I also told the owner my reaction is to euthanize, I did recommend to her to seek the advice of "Rottie Rescue" for any additional information that could be provided to her.

I am disappointed to see the harsh tone you took with this woman. Yes, she made some mistakes with her dog, but did she abandon the dog to the street, or put an ad in the paper for a "free dog I have to get rid of"? NO, she didn't. She came here, very forthright, holding herself accountable and seeking advice.

I think a bit of compassion and empathy would have been in order, rather than an unecessarily rude response. Whatever you think of the woman, she is trying to do the right thing, and simply opened herself up here to receive SUPPORTIVE advice, not be made to feel any worse than she already does.

Perhaps you did not mean to come across the way you did, but it immediately struck me that way, and I wasn't the only one.

MAX619: As I said, my gut reaction to your situation is to lovingly send Max to the Bridge, so that you KNOW that life will not continue in a downward spiral for him. He is confused by life......where did his leader go? What happened to him during those 40 days and nights and WHY? Why is he feeling the way he is at his advanced age? It's terribly sad, and I wish you the very best in making the best decision for Max. You will instinctively know what the right thing to do is. My thoughts are with you.

[spidey]

I really don't think it's in any way fair to characterise what brunie's mom said as "harsh". "have him euthanized with your loving arms around him" doesn't seem at all harsh to me. She spoke the truth: this is not a good candidate for rescue, most reputable rescues wouldn't touch him and to try and rehome him would be unfair to the dog and to any possible new owner (not to mention the other, easier dogs out there in need of homes).

IMHO, euthanasia is very far from the worst fate a dog can meet, they don't know that this needle is the last they'll ever have, they're not people capable of anticipating their own death. I think a dog like this, in a situation like this, would be best off being humanely euthanised with Eduardo present. You can't save every dog, and every dog does not need to be saved. Sadly, it sounds like Max is one of those.

[Hudson's Alpha]

Spidey,

I agree with everything you just said!!! I also agreed with the content of what Brunie's mom said! It was only the TONE that I felt was harsh, that's all. This owner asked for all possible solutions for this dog EXCEPT euthanasia, which tells me that the owner is having a very hard time with the concept of putting Max to sleep.

I have said from my first post that I believe that euthanasia is the best thing for Max; indeed, it is the most LOVING thing this owner can do for Max. I behold the right that we have to make this difficult decision on behalf of our pets. And I think it's a tragedy that we cannot offer the same thing to our terminally ill, suffering loved ones.

So, no hard feelings intended; I think we would all agree this is a highly-charged, emotional issue, but I come down on the side of everyone else who believes sending Max to the Bridge is best for MAX.

Take Care.

[max619]

Hello All,

First, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to read the lengthy issue, where I tried to receive the benefit of your experience. One can spend so much time to try to figure out 'what the right thing to do might be'. And your comments have therefore helped me to have some peace with my own thought processes.

Let me say that I 'fully' understand that this problem is mine in the making. This is an emotional burden that, as you know, I now must live with until 'I go to the bridge', as they say..

Here is my summary of your comments. Please feel free to correct or add your comments.

1) Rehoming Max is not an option. (Max is already too confused and his behaviour creates too much liability to expect that rehoming would be successfully uneventful.)

2) Rehabilitating Max would require a combination of a behaviourist and my (non-traveling) presence. ( Unfortunately, finances dictate that I continue to travel for some years.)

3) Max is undesirable as a Rescue dog for 3 reasons: a) His behaviour, b) his age, c) The skill-set that Rescue staff has to deal with correcting Max's behaviour and the number of Dogs presently seeking a home from the Rescue program.

4) Putting Max down is more humane or appropriate that any of the known alternatives.

Only viable options appear to be:

1) Keep Max myself - If I can figure out a way to keep MAX I will. (This would require finding a Job where I don't have to travel. As an Engineer that speaks 4 languages, this is not likely.)

2) Put Max down. - If I cannot be a "Stay at home" Alpha Dad.

Warm regards and thank you again,

Eduardo (MAX619)

[Hudson's Alpha]

Eduardo,

You have certainly read all of our posts to you very carefully, and again, it is so clear how much you love your dog.

But I think that your summation of what you have read is very accurate. I think that even if you choose to keep Max, the problems are probably going to continue. And you cannot make a career change for Max, unfortuantely. As an engineer fluent in 4 languages, and obviously traveling the globe as part of your career....I believe you need to continue with that part of your life. You have had many years of memories of Max when times were good. It doesn't sound like Max is any happier than you are at this point.

I really feel that, as hard as it would be for you to do, euthanasia is the most loving gift you can give Max. He will not suffer at all, and it truly is the most selfless act you can take on his behalf.

I have had to do this myself, and it nearly broke my heart. But after some time and reflection, I knew I did the right thing for my Best Friend.

I wish you the best of luck, and I believe you will make the best decision for MAX in the end. I'm so sorry you are going through this right now. Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

[ILoveRotts]

Eduardo,

Only you can truly be the judge of this situation. You know your dog best.

But I really think you should have your dog professionally evaluated either by a Rescue org or by a professional trainer.
If it were me, I would not take the advice of a kennel owner (no offense to kennel owners out there). Do you know this kennel owner to be reputable - not all are. Especially with Rotts. Not all dog people are Rott people.

Max went through a horrible ordeal. Rotts do not do well without human companionship. And he does have several strikes against him.


I think you owe it to yourself & Max to have him evaluated 1st. You may end up helping him to the bridge anyway but you will feel better about your situation.

Good Luck! And whatever decision you make - know that it is the right one for you & Max.

[max619]

I thought I owed all of you who participated in this thread to let you know what I ended up doing with my rottie, my dearest Max.

I took three months off work and spent as much quality time as I could with him. We took long, long walks together, I mean long walks. We also shared many barbecues, where a piece of meat (a large one!!!) was specially barbecued for Max. We played a lot of ball. He had long conversations.
He gained weight in the process and became the same happy Max he was before he went through the horrible experience at that Kennel. I even got to teach him new "commands". He learnt quickly.

But my employer would not wait for me any longer . And I could not find a way to keep Max with me, which was the ONLY real alternative for the two of us.

Yesterday I held Max tight in my arms while he got the two shots. The first shot made him very sleepy, it was the kind of shot you get prior to surgery. He never knew what happened next.

This has been a devastating experience for me.
I am trying to make my grieving some what tolerable by telling me that he departed with all those fresh happy memories we shared during these last three months.

Max' sense of loyalty will forever be in my heart .

I would like to tell youall that one of the things that I learnt with Max is that having a dog is like having a little child with the difference that they remain little children for as long as they live. And perhaps that is exactly what it made it so special about having my Max.

When I retire I'll get another Rottie, only this time I'll not get it from a careless breeder but from a Rottie Rescue organization.

Thank you all for your advice and understanding, specially you Hudson's Alpha.

Eduardo

[roadweed]

I am sorry that you had to let Max go; It must have been very difficult. It is good that you had those last 3 months of quality time with him to remember.