Embarrassing display of defensive behavior

[cucciolone]

On Sunday my husband, his parents and I took Diesel to a park for a picnic. In order to have my hands free to eat, I tied Diesel's leash to the rail that bordered the lake behind me. I sat down at the picnic table that we situated about 8 feet away from the rail, and my back was facing Diesel. He was a few feet out of range both of the table and of me. And despite the presence of my husband (if you remember, Diesel never became particularly defensive when my husband was around; that is until recently, when a man rushed at my head screaming with raised fists, and Diesel lunged in front of me to intercept him even though my husband was standing right beside me), Diesel began to vocalize very gutterally and lunge with great strength at any person or dog passing near us. He kept charging and hitting the end of his leash with such power that it's really a wonder that he didn't decapitate himself. He would not stop despite numerous corrections. This was embarrassing, especially with my mother-in-law as a witness, as I think she believes that Rottweilers are assassins on four legs.

What was even more striking about it was this: three times over the course of our leisurely 2-hour lunch, I got up and left our little group to go exploring the park on my own-- and Diesel ceased all aggression immediately, as soon as I disappeared. Each time I left, he would go into a regal, lion-like down, putting himself of his own accord into a confident and relaxed pose, calmly and alertly surveying his surroundings without moving a muscle. Each time I returned I found him in a classic Rottweiler 'wait and see' pose. But as soon as I would rejoin the group, he would again begin lunging and hitting the end of the leash toward anything that passed. This wasn't a fluke or a coincidence, it happened like I said three times, and each of my absences lasted for about twenty minutes, during which he made no move to drive anyone or thing away from the remaining group (husband and in-laws). And he would start up again with vigor as soon as I reappeared.

I'm wondering first of all what I could have done to effectively curtail these displays. My corrections, however serious, had no impact on his behavior. Should I have untied him and taken him for a little walk to distract him, putting him through some obedience drills? I'm not convinced that that would have made much difference, though- what else could I have done?

And of course I wonder what it is that continues to make the difference between his behavior when I'm present and when I'm not so incredibly marked. My trainer thinks that he becomes defensive on our walks together mostly because I "become nervous when anyone approaches" and that Diesel senses this and acts accordingly. That is probably a contributing factor, and we're working on it. But it's getting harder to believe that it's ALL a matter of my "attitude while handling him", because on Sunday, I wasn't holding or handling him- he wasn't even near enough to touch me- I wasn't looking at him (unless I was correcting him), nor was I nervous about anything in any way. It seemed to be the sight of me alone that triggered it. And again, it happened in the presence of my husband (the stronger animal, who could ostensibly ward off a threat if the need arose).

In my novice logic, what I deduce from what I saw is that it was a case of barrier aggression brought on by the fact that he felt he could not reach and/or "defend" me if a person or animal had come up and presented any sort of a threat to me, and that he's not necessarily relying on my husband anymore to do so. Is this correct, or is it way off base?

[TrishB]

I think your trainer is correct in that Diesel now feels as though he is your protector. If I understand correctly, someone came at you at one point?

...that is until recently, when a man rushed at my head screaming with raised fists, and Diesel lunged in front of me to intercept him even....

He now knows that you are unsure, nervous and wants to protect you. Your trainer is also correct in that your own feelings can feed into a dogs behaviour.

He has now learnt that he must always protect you - his behaviour has grown to protect you at all times. As you have seen, this is a potentially dangerous situation! Continue working with your trainer intensively. This must be taken care of. God forbid someone is in the same area as you and he gets away from you / off the leash / out of your control.

Please get this taken care of now - before someone is hurt.

[Skip]

While I hope I don't come across as insensitive or cruel:

I think each lunge that he got away with simply re-inforced his behavior. After the first one, I would have been prepared (prong, leash) to deal out enough correction (at the proper time) that he would not be getting the satisfaction he thought. If for some reason you were not able to do this, I would have removed the dog (taken him home) for a lot more training. A dog constantly lunging is an accident waiting to happen. And this went on for HOURS? Your mother-in-law was right to be worried.

[TrishB]

I agree with Skip here - this isn't an embarrassing situation, this is a dangerous one. The dog should have been taken home.

Please get him into some intensive training.

[waschull]

Easy now kids. Those of us who read this forum know that Cucciolone has sought the best trainng available for Deisel and made considerable efforts to gain insight into and curtail some aspects of his behavior. What can we offer that might be helpful to her?

The restriction of the leash, combined with Diesel's opinion that he needs to protect his mom and the odd incident that apparently occurred left Diesel hyper sensitive to threats in her presence. Yes, it probably would have been better to get him home because as Skip pointed out, the behavior , uncorrected, is reinforcing (etc, etc).

I have an AB that is my self appointed guardian. If I am around, he is next to me and vigilant. He will growl at people who approach me, but not my husband, etc. Fortunately, his behavior is not as intense as Diesel's. Furthermore, it is not possible that this stems from anxiety on my part being transmitted to my dog. While this can certainly happen, my husband is actually much more anxious about Buck's potential behavior than I am. Nonetheless, the behaviors occur with me and never with my husband. Anyway, good luck with Diesel.

[Skip]

I choose not to take this easy. This "embarrassing" situation upset me. Embarrassing is the last thing that should have come to mind. Sometimes IMMEDIATE action needs to be done to stop the dangerous behavior. While the causes of the behavior can always be debated on and on and on, there are times when the behavior must be VERY quickly stopped. I appreciate anyone's efforts to train their dog and become more knowledgable, but I truly hate to see avoidable DANGEROUS situations continue to become another statistic. Embarrassing? Wrong emotion.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by waschull
Easy now kids. Those of us who read this forum know that Cucciolone has sought the best training available for Deisel and made considerable efforts to gain insight into and curtail some aspects of his behavior. What can we offer that might be helpful to her?

So you know, I feel that we did offer helpful advice. If that situation arises again, Diesel needs to be removed from the situation. Allowing it to continue will only aggrevate the situation and reinforce the behaviour.

Cucciolone is currently working with their trainer and we've encouraged that! :) Although our advice may have been blunt, it is acurate and helpful.

[WorkinDogz]

While it's all well and fine for our dogs to jump to our rescue if/when the time calls for it; a dog.....who arbitrarily makes the decisions of who and when to react to is a loose cannon.

Corrections failed to make the slightest impression which lends itself to a disreguard and a lack of respect for the OWNER.

I'm sorry; but your problems with your dog are not seeming to improve but WORSEN in intensity and severety.

IMHO it's time to pull the plug on any and all bitework you're doing and get control of your dog before the authorities get control of him for you.

[cucciolone]

Thank you for the answers. In another thread I had already alluded to the incident in which the man rushed towards my head screaming and waving his fists, etc., which is why I sort of glided over it here. But it did happen in a park setting just a few weeks ago, at our last picnic-like outing.

I should have realized that each successful lunge was reinforcing the next, I can't believe it didn't occur to me. I probably should have insisted on packing him up and taking him home, but we had invited my in-laws to a park three hours away, and neither they nor my husband would have taken very kindly to the suggestion that we needed to cut the day short, turn around and head right back because of my training issues, that no one on my end takes as seriously as I do. (My mother-in-law wasn't worried, she said 'Just leave him alone and eat, he's not hurting any one.') Nor could I put Diesel to wait a while in the car, it was very hot. Next time I will try to do what I can to handle things better. Diesel did slow down somewhat when I finally moved my chair next to him. He placed himself between me and the passersby. I tried to talk him through it, anticipating his reactions and warning him to stay calm when I saw someone approaching, and I had some success this way.

I've already mentioned on another thread that we're no longer doing bitework and are working on obedience only. Both my trainer and my husband think that it's all attributable to my attitude in handling Diesel, but I don't believe it's that simple. I think that my dog's defense drive is not so strictly related to my emotional state as they would have it. I'm just a normal, slightly introverted person, not a neurotic quivering mess, after all.

I'm sorry if this is a little hazy or incoherent. My cat is in the emergency room right now with an obstructed bladder, and I can't get a hold of my husband or of the vet for any news.

[waschull]

It does seem that Cuccilione's problem's with Diesel are getting worse. Why might this be? He may be maturing and really "coming into his own". Bite work could play a role - he has learned it is OK to bite under certain circumstances and he is generalizing that response. He is disrespecting the commands of his person as he continues to show aggression so basic obedience seems to be an issue.

Clearly Diesel has some serious issues. It does seem like bite work (and quite possibly public appearances!) might not be appropriate for Diesel.

[WorkinDogz]

I hope your kitty is ok!! :(

----------------------

On to the dog......

Packing him up and taking him home certainly would end the situation right then; but will do absolutely NOTHING in regards to conditioning him for the NEXT situation he will encounter.

Wanna know what I would have done??

Very simply; Diesel would have been seeing stars to this day. His reaction (NO MATTER WHO WAS DOING WHAT) is totally unacceptable and his complete disregard to your correction is what should have been embarrassing.

ROCK THAT DOGS WORLD before he rocks some innocent persons.

He's not a puppy; he's running with the big dogs now and he's very close to being what I would consider an out of control MENACE to society.

Take that bull(head) by the horns. It's up to you.

[waschull]

WD - can you be specific about the "rock his world" thing. What sort have punishment would you have used. What sorts of strategies are appropriate for informing a dog he MUST stop what he is doing (after he has defied previous attempts). THANKS!

[WorkinDogz]

Not punishment. CORRECTION.

This dog (if he were mine) would never; ever be without a prong collar on. Ever. (of course he wouldn't be staked out ON a prong collar; but one would be on him; fitted correctly and with a tab on it. He wouldn't be staked out at all; but that's a whole 'nuther thing all-together.)

When Mr. Wonderful decided to flex his muscle inappropriately the correction issued would be an intense; no-questions-asked DEMAND that he cease. NOW. Corrections NEED to fit the offense. This isn't some cute doggie breaking a sit in obedience class... this dog is increasingly and ACTIVELY showing aggression inappropriately.

His back would be turned away from the person he saw fit to fire off on and firmly and with authority; he would be in a down position..... followed by an obedience drill that would leave little room for his error.

This type of dog cannot be given any leadway to make decisions. He will choose the muscle over the brain; but when he makes bad decisions; he needs to know that his lack of tolerance is NO WHERE NEAR HIS OWNERS LACK OF TOLERANCE FOR HIS GARBAGE BEHAVIOR.

Bottom line though..... none of it will "work" if the obedience isn't uptight and the dog isn't knocked down a few (hundred) pegs in every aspect of his existance.

No more free anything. He works for everything and his freedoms should be extinguished. He needs to earn things....not have them available until he proves himself worthy.

[Bruce Lanthier]

Give a very hard correction as the thought is forming in his head. She should be able to see him alert on what he considers a potential threat. When his body starts to tense, as the thought of lunging is forming, give him a HARD correction that brings his focus off of the object to her.

[Bruce Lanthier]

Her MUCH better post beat mine. ;) I should have mentioned prong collar but just assumed on a boy like this that was what cucciolone would use.