my dog hates vets!!!

[marciela]

I'm new to this forum, I have a 1 year-old male rott "Zorro".
He is absolutely great except for vet visits, today he was taken
in to be neutered and I had to get help from a friend, so the vet
could sedate him. He's weighing about 90lbs, and I'm not a very
big woman, he is always calm exept for vet visits, the vet tech told
me that he was just an aggressive dog, I just looked at her! This
was quite embarassing. He's is not aggressive. I have contacted
a professional trainer who is going to be training him, I'am also friends with the breeder who owns the mom and dad who have
also helped me train him with his basic commands. I really love my
dog and really wasjust wondering if anyone out there is of small build, with the same problem. When I go to the vets the really
freak out because he so large and like I said I'm not very big. just
wanted to know if any one had the same problem. If any one has
a suggestion or has a similar situation please let me know, how to
maybe make it easier on everyone. thank you!

[TrishB]

You should read this thread:

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...threadid=12914

[Judi W]

Your size has nothing to do with it. I am <100 and many other handlers are slight of build. That doesn't mean that we are weak, mentally or physically. The issue is not your size, but the fact that your dog does not do what he is instructed to do by you. That means you do not have control of him and people are right to express some concern. Training means the dogs does as instructed and not only when they don't object, but all the time, even when it might be a bit unpleasant.

[BarryMcD]

>Judi W wrote:

> The issue is not your size, but the fact that
> your dog does not do what he is instructed to
> do by you. That means you do not have control
> of him and people are right to express some
> concern.

She's taking the dog to the vet, not a Schutzhund trial! Many many dogs are afraid of going to the vet. Many are scared to death, just as some mannerly and well-disciplined humans are scared to death of the doctor or a needle!

Besides the dog having a phobia of the vet--which is understandable if the dog has been lifted up high on moveable scales, stuck with needles to draw blood, given innoculations, had its rectum probed, and who knows what else--the dog probably must enter this sanctum of fear by walking through a waiting room filled with other dogs and cats, which
activate its defenses and hunting instinct. This can be an overwhelming and fear-producing crisis for some dogs.

> Training means the dogs does as instructed and
> not only when they don't object, but all the
> time, even when it might be a bit unpleasant.

Who said that dog training is not complete until you have TOTAL CONTROL over the dog? No one ever has total control in all situations, especially in crises! You softened the strength of your statement above by ending with "even when it MIGHT be a BIT UNPLEASANT." I think the phrase "even when the dog is in utter panic" is a little more accurate in Marciela's dog's case.

If your dog is attacked and becomes involved in a vicious dog fight, I'd like to see you end the fight by quietly issuing sit and stay commands! If he doesn't do that immediately, I guess you have no control over him!

Of course you have no control over him! He's a dog, not a machine!

I am not saying some very well-trained and well-adjusted dogs cannot go to the vet in a mannerly fashion, but to blame the dog or the owner (!) for lack of training or control because the poor animal is in the throws of the "fight or flight" instinct, with its adrenaline rushing through its veins the way that nature and thousands of years of evolution have designed it to for the dog's own safety and survival is unwarranted.

By all means, continue to train the dog and train it the very best you can! But NO training will offset or prevent a dog's natural reaction in every crisis, and going to the vet is a crisis for some dogs. I personally have a basenji that is the most mild-mannered and well-trained dog in the county, and when I first brought him to the vet he either started shaking uncontrollably or pulled on the leash and scampers for dear life for the door. Believe me, he was a well-trained animal, but the vet's office, like other traumatic situations I can think of, is not the time to proof a dog or criticize its training!

(BTW, I remember the first time I brought this 9 week old pup to the vet's, and as it sat trembling, the lady next to me said, "Yours does that too, huh?" Her dog was shaking like a leaf. And then an owner came in and sat down and we both watched his 60 lb. shepherd shake so hard the metal chair banged on the wall.)

After doing some of what I will suggest next, I now can take that basenji to the vet and it remains relatively calm.

Suggestion: The dog needs to be desensitized to the vet's office. It may need more training, but that is an independent and unrelated matter in this situation until the dog overcomes its fear. If the dog is scared to death, no amount of training a Sit is going to make it sit, anymore than a human would sit if his or her house was burning down.

Try taking the dog to the vet's office several times a week--if the vet is not too far away--and just walk into the office and sit there for a few minutes. Reward the dog profusely for any good behavior it shows. Reward the dog profusely when you leave. Then go back again in a few days. And repeat and repeat!

Start with very short visits of just a minute or two. Gradually increase the length to maybe five minutes.

Sit in different seats each time. Walk around the office sometimes. Sometimes walk up to the door but don;t go in. The more often you go, the sooner the dog will start to relax a little. You need to have the dog identify the vet with good things--yummy treats and chew toys, or just a good petting and verbal praise.

If you have success after several weeks or months, then ask the vet if the dog can just peek into an exam room. See if it will walk across the scale. Etc. I am sure most vets would be glad to help.

If the dog is really out of its mind when you go to the vet, ask the vet for a mild tranquilizer that you can give the dog an hour before you go to a real appointment. A few real scheduled visits under tranquilization may also help the dog to see that it can get in and out of the plsace without major worries.

If your vet says the dog is out of control and not trained, and if he or she is not willing to participate in this desensitization or give the dog a tranquilizer, then find a vet who knows what the heck he's doing!

[WorkinDogz]

SINCE WHEN is a dog only required to be obedient and mannerly when participating in a dog sport of some kind!

The AVERAGE FAMILY PET really should be expected to maintain a level of self control and obedience even under stressful situations...... Sit really is SIT under any circumstances.

Size; does NOT matter. Obedience and training most certainly does.

Desensitize yes; but please; no excuses Barry. It truly is ashame for all involved when a dog has to be sedated for ROUTINE exams because he has an enabler who allowed him to behave so poorly for such a long time that now the behavior is HABIT.

And yes; I realize the dog was in for a neuter.....but I'm willing to bet that the dog isn't peaches and cream under routine situations either.

Save the Acepromazine and work with the dog.

[BarryMcD]

> WorkinDogz wrote: SINCE WHEN is a dog only
> required to be obedient and mannerly when
> participating in a dog sport of some kind!
> The AVERAGE FAMILY PET really should be
> expected to maintain a level of self control
> and obedience even under stressful situations...
> Sit really is SIT under any circumstances.

Ridiculous expectation. Most pet owners barely have the time to train a good Sit, and you expect them to have their dogs proofed to the point where the dog will remain sitting as a car crash occurs in front of it and fire surrounds it?

First, no dog is 100% compliant. If that were so, there would not have to be Schutzhund trials. You could just give every well-trained dog all the points and go home. These are a-n-i-m-a-l-s. Living creatures. Pets. They are not robots. As living organisms with a nervous system and emotions and a mind of sorts, they are influenced by their environment. Adaptability and, for many breeds, independent thinking is one of the the canine's greatest assets! If you have a dog that complies 100% with your wishes and does so despite the dangers of its surroundings and with no regard for the environment it is in, you do not have a well-trained dog, you have a darned stupid dog!

Dogs are also not people--they are much less intelligent and adaptable and trainable than people--yet you seem to expect a type of zero tolerence total compliance from them that no human could ever exhibit!

A dog that is scared is not a poorly trained dog. It MAY be a poorly socialized dog, but even the best socialization as a pup cannot include every possible situation, especially traumatic or unexpected ones.

> WorkinDogz stated:

> Desensitize yes; but please; no excuses Barry.
> It truly is ashame for all involved when a
> dog has to be sedated for ROUTINE exams because
> he has an enabler who allowed him to behave so
> poorly for such a long time that now the
> behavior is HABIT.

> I'm willing to bet that the dog isn't peaches
> and cream under routine situations either.

You make very bold assumptions here about the owner. I see little in the original post to suggest that the owner has ignored training the dog and is "enabling it" to behave poorly. Note that she mentions the following, among other things:

> Marciela stated in the opening post: "He is
> absolutely great except for vet visits."

> She also said: "I have contacted a professional
> trainer who is going to be training him..."

So if you bet the dog is poorly behaved under most other situations, you are basically calling the owner a liar, and I'd say between some of the other responses and yours, it will be a wonder if this poor lady, who said she was "new to the forum" ever comes back.

As usual, WD, you want to take the standards of a dog sport and apply them to pets, and insist that the pet should be in every way as compliant and well-trained and steady as your best experiences Schutzhund dog.

The point of my original post--besides defending the original poster from suggestions that subtley labeled her as a lousy and irresponsible owner on the sole basis that her dog got scared at the vets--was to point out what you, WD, of all people, certainly must know: Dogs can become scared, psyched out, spooky, lose confidence, and will during these times not obey as they do under normal circumstances.

Of course a dog is not fully trained if it only obeys commands in the quiet of your bedroom. It needs to generalize these commands and learn to follow them well under various circumstances, with distractions, and so on. But that is not to say that the average pet owner is an "enabler" if he or she has not thought up every single circumstance on earth and trained their dog to always comply, even if the dog is sick or scared or debilitated.

I mean, how far would you go with this? You obviously expect a scared dog in a vet's office to comply with all commands without hesitation. How about a dog that is injured? Just hit by a car and has its rear leg broken? Is that dog poorly trained if it won't obey a command to Sit and not speak? Is the owner of such a dog an enabler? How about if you put the dog in a Sit Stay before you doze off for your afternoon nap and the house catches fire? Would you expect that dog to remain motionless?

Now you may think that these are extreme and ridiculous examples, but you are the one that stated that: "The AVERAGE FAMILY PET really should be expected to maintain a level of self control and obedience even under stressful situations... Sit really is SIT under any circumstances. [Last three words underscored!]

Also, I think you underestimate the intimidation and fear that a dog can experience at the vets.

First, dogs are much more attuned to environments than humans. With the dog's heightened sense of smell, hearing, and the way it can process these signals to obtain detailed information about the emotional states of the other animals around it, the nervousness of its master, the smells of blood and anxiety that surely permeate even the best vet's office, the dog is aware of much more than the owner bringing it into the vet's office. There is no threat to you, as a owner, at the vet's office (except maybe an empty checking account!) Meanwhile, the dog is bathed and surrounded in negative vibes and danger signals.

Second, it is a natural phobia for any intelligent animal to be afriad of being stuck with a needle, anesthetized and made unconscious, etc. If a big tall macho human can faint at the sight of a needle, I think there's a little room to give a dog the benefit of the doubt. (Although I suppose you'd expect the fainting human to follow your directions and not faint if you told him this as he was falling to the floor?)

> Save the Acepromazine and work with the dog.

Of course work with the dog. My suggestion that a tranquilizer might be used temporarily to facilitate positive experiences and allow the dog to have some successes is a way of working with the dog. It is part of a process of desensitization that I suggested "If the dog is really out of its mind when you go to the vet," in other words, in the worst case, if gradual exposure by visiting did not work well.

Desensitizing and training are two sides of the same coin, but I use the terms here as exclusive of one another. Training says: "I want you to do this when I tell you." Desensitization says: "I understand you are scared, and I want to help you overcome the fear." You cannot fully train a dog that needs to be desensitized. You must deal with fears and anxieties before training will be effective.

So I tell you that in the end IT DOESN'T MATTER if this dog has been trained or not at this point because whether it was or wasn't, it is obviously extremely anxious and scared of going to the vet; therefore, at the vet's office it is not going to obey a command whether it was well-trained, poorly trained, or never trained.

Dogs are living creatures, with instincts and a nature that your will is never going to completely overcome. And thank God for that!

Try placing your best dog in a Sit Stay out on your front lawn this evening without feeding it, and let me know if it is still sitting there tomorrow morning. "Sit really is SIT under any circumstances."

[Judi W]

The question was about a small person controlling a large dog. I was not implying anything about the owner's responsibility which she wants to be able to have in these circumstances and so stated. What I was saying is that training will compensate for trying to muscle a dog with size and physical force which simply puts more resistance into the dog. I personally did not receive the impression that the dog was so demented that he could not learn to think and respond. It is through the experience of training that the dog learns to have confidence in the owner and trust that owner will evaluate fairly what is being asked. Even very timid dogs can learn to trust their owners. I have a great deal of respect for dogs and their ability to learn. Yes, training does include desensitization, but it also teaches the dog self-control and to learn to manage its emotions.

Most owners dearly want their dogs to be able to receive the best medical attention possible. It is extremely difficult to practice good medicine on an animal that one cannot even approach.

[WorkinDogz]

I can't even believe what I read in your last post, BM.

My guess is since the owner is hiring a professional trainer; the dog is for the most part UNTRAINED at 1 year of age.

Why then is he unable to control himself and acting out on his fears and desires?? Because he IS untrained.

I have to tell ya Barry......I never thought I'd read a post by you that contained the amount of excuses as the above one does. Dogs are more intelligent than you give them any credit for.....and you DON'T TRUST training!

You place very little stock in training. I've seen the results of obedience not just in my own house. (I have to tell you; if I put ANY of my dogs in a sit in the front yard and their food bowl filled with every K9 yummy on the planet in front of them.....both dog and filled bowl WOULD BE THERE when I returned...no matter how long it takes.) There is only one reason why the "average pet" won't do the same...and that's TIME AND EFFORT in TRAINING.

Your theory pretty much says that dogs only should be required to be obedient within the confines of their home.....and any other time "It's ok Doggie. You might be scared, tired, bored, just-don't-wanna so then it's OK if you don't sit when I say it......I'll be RIGHT HERE to make an E X C U S E for you."

Barry.....WHO CARES if the dog is push button in the house! You can say your dog IS OBEDIENT when he complies EVEN WHEN he would rather be doing something else.

I've seen literally thousands of dogs in Vet Hospitals Barry. Several thousands. The numbers tend to mount pretty high when your profession IS "Vet Hospitals".

I have YET to meet a dog who has an owner that spent time and concerted effort in the dogs training NOT be able to reinforce a command and turn out-of-control to AT LEAST "Tolerate".

Training builds a foundation of not just sit, down, stay and heel...it also builds CONFIDENCE in the dog and a dogs CONFIDENCE in the owner!

I would really like some of our own forum members who were once "enablers" and made it possible for their dogs to behave so poorly.....then realized what was going on and WORKED and CONDITIONED the dog in obedience...... I would sure love for them to tell their "story" in this thread.

Obedience is not just for the competition dog Barry. It's a sorry shame you feel that it is.

[JoJo]

I am NOT in competision....I have 2 PET rotties. And believe you me, they will and ARE trained! Who in their right mind would want an unruley dog CONTROLLING their owner? I sure wouldn't. When I say sit, I mean sit. When I say leave it, I mean leave it. My dogs are happy campers, and they are confident. They trust me and I trust them to BEHAVE wherever I take them. For they WILL know what RESPECT means no matter what enviroment they are in. Dogs are smart, but it has to start at the top of the leash and let it run down.

Barry, can you honestly say that you can trust your dogs out in public if you feel that they should only be good doggies at home? I would personally feel very uneasy around them, for they sound like they can do what they FEEL like doing, just because they are PETS.

My dear friend has a "small" dog and she has that same mentality. Because of it, she can't take her dog anywheres as the little thing seems to do as it pleases and she has no control over it! No one wants it near them. I find that a shame, as this dog needs to be socialized and instead its avoided like the pleague. What is wrong with TRAINING ANY dog? I guess so much for getting a CGC! :( You know what that means, GOOD CANINE CITIZEN! Gee, I guess those PETS that have it weren't trained!

And as for me, I'm far from being a trainer, but I do have alot of common sense!

JoJo

[lblax]

well to get back to the thread regardless of the amount of training ,which it sounds like you are going to get on the right track on training. and no your dog doesnt have to have the obediance of a competition dog but down is down and sit is sdit it just may not be as pretty.. going to the vet is something you will have to conquer and without knowing if yours had a tramatic experiance early on or not i do see some obvious problems
#1 it sounds like you vet may not be rott friendly talk to several vets about your situation and i guarantee you you will find one more than willing to help.
#2you are afraid of not being able to control your dog so you are ridden with anxiety all of the ride to the vets and the closer you get the more you are worried. your dog senses this and he is bolstering up for the fight because your making him scarred too.
#3 teach the stand command that way routine things they can work on him while standing(ours luvs the vet but really doesnt care to be lifted to a slipery table and then be pinned down by vet techs so he doesnt slip off)
#4 stay away from the sedative before going they sedated ours for his ofa xrays and it was our only bad vet experiance and now we know he does turn aggressive while under sedation A mean drunk i guess!!!!!lmao
#5 and renember you will overcome this with the proper training and desensitizing of your dog.

actually out side of the training feild the vets office is our dogs faverate place to go when we pull in the drive he starts whining and about jerks your arm off getting to the door. and heres our funniest vet tell after i brought him home from neutering i had noticed he had pulled out several stiches so i took him back to the vet they set him up on the table and with out a numbimg shot the vet restiched him while her husband knelt in front of him and let the dog give him a face clean. so good luck

[marciela]

Well, this really gets complicated, when I went to pick zorro up
from his surgery, I had taken a friend with me, no problems paid for the whole procedure which had also included tattoing. Well, I get home and read on his file, which the receptionist gave me a copy and the vet, wrote that Zorro was considered an aggressive
dog capable of killing and biting some one. I was very upset, because my dog is only like this when he goes to the vet. I can do anything to him (clean his ears, clipp his nails, when bathing him he will sit in the tub till I'm finished bathing him, will not come
in the house unless given the ok!, sits before every meal and won't eat untill given the ok!, on,on,and on,) So when I read this I did get very mad, so I called the vet and told him that that was not fair to my dog he had only seen him twice in my dogs life and went on to tell him that he had had a bad experience at six months, mind you my rotts father goes there who is 120lb and much bigger and he acts the same way at the vets, but whos owner is 6'0ft and a man, well he said he was sorry if he had offended me and i told him he had and that I would be taking my puppy somewhere else, I contacted the houston rottie rescue and they gave me a number to a vet that handles all ther rotties, so i called this vet and they said they would be happy to see my zorro, the only question I have is, will the statement the other vet put in his file effect zorro in some way. I really hate him to be labeled as aggressive when he is a big bear, my 7 year old daughter even gives him treats and he sits for her and lays down for her etc,etc as if it were me giving him the commands, my new roommate even went outside and pet him and played with him when my poor puppy wasn't very familiar with him and he did this when i wasn't even home, this does not sound like an aggressive dog to me. I feel that my dog was judged based on my size and to me thats not very fair and I told this to that vet as well. If any one knows about a similar situation I would grately appreciate it.

mg

[lblax]

read my previous post there are alot of probs you have to resolve with your dog at the vets office you said your dogs sire goes to the same vet and he reacts the same way??? i would definatly get a differant vet and if your dog hasnt had any abnormal sickness that needs watched i wouldnt transfer his records. be honest with the new vet and voice all of your concerns, and do this in an office visit without your dog. belive it or not there are some real rotty hating vets

[chivas]

I have a problem with the vet "freaking out" over the breed. Ive worked with several vets and have NEVER seen ANY vet freak out over a certain breed. They are vets for a reason and its not just to treat poodles (which by the way are biters BIG TIME).
I think that you maybe have too much dog for youself - he should of been trained MUCH earlier then 1 yr. But you can get him better acquainted with people - just take him everywhere with you and have people pet and talk to him! Its the BEST way to socialize ANY dog!
Good Luck!

[anna&jacksmom]

Maybe you should take this dog to a get to know you visit with the new vet. Take lots of treats with you and have the tech come to the parking lot and pet the dog and then if the vet has time and is willing (you make an apointment for this) have him/her come out and meet your dog in the parking lot too and pet and love the dog while examining him w/out taking him into an exam room and w/out any shots. Maybe this way the new vet can see that the dog is not agressive. You also might want to invest in a muzzle and get the dog used to it before you have to take it inside the vets office. That way if he is agressive in that situation he won't be able to bite and people will feel more comfortabel.

[Jamie & Odin]

WorkinDogz, I can attest to the value of training and establishing leadership that works no matter what situation you are in. Now, my dog is not proofed beyond failability, that's what we're working on now. However, what he has learned through training and my leadership is that if I say something is ok, it really is. Even at the vet. This is a dog that was shaking, hiding under the chair and peeing on the floor when the vet came in. Now he sits next to me, allows himself to be lifted onto the table and examined, poked, prodded etc. to the vets content. Now, don't get me wrong, his nub isn't waggin' during all this, but he's not hiding, growling shaking or otherwise carrying on. Why is this? Because I told him to, because he trusts me, and I believe because he knows when I tell him something the decision has already been made;)