rottie socialization

[Angelica]

My daughter got a rottie female at the age of eight weeks. She goes to school so Roo comes to stay with us during the day. I have four dogs, a husky/shepherd(male), a springer spaniel(female), a shepherd cross(male) and a young beagle( male). We feel it's important that Roo be around other dogs but she and the beagle play very rough. They snarl and nip each other's faces and though they appear to be having a good time I'm concerned that the puppy is learning aggressive behavior. Is their play a good thing or not?

[Judi W]

If it is play, it is play. Learning which dogs want to play rough, how hard to play rough, when you've gone to far and when to stop is part of doggy social skills. The other dogs speak dog quite well, even if you do not. They would certainly let you know if she was truly passing all bounds. It sounds as if the Beagle is her "rough play" partner and enjoys the game. If it is just plain nastiness on her part, the Beagle should be giving you some clear clues. The fact that they chose each other and she doesn't treat all the dogs that way indicates that she is choosing a play partner.

[AlphaDog]

I will be VERY careful here. Agresive play with Rotties are not encouraged. If they are playing way too rough and you have any doubt that it's play, stop and and correct it. Better yet, separate those two. You want to teach your Rottie to be gentle with other dogs and not play rough.

Persoanlly, I'll seperate them. Don't go down this route.

Good luck

[AdeL1610]

Naw its just playtime. They wouldn't hurt each other, neither will Roo learn aggressive behaviour from play. On the contrary, the beagle may teach her some manners.

My girl played like that too as a 4 month old pup, I let her but gave her a time out when it got too much. Now she's 2 year old, she plays nice with small dogs, and just as "violently" with little bro' Apollo.

[TrishB]

I don't believe the Beagle is teaching her or allowing her to be aggressive. I believe that the Beagle is teaching her how to play! If you really watch them I'm sure you'll notice very subtle body language and 'dog speak'.

Watch for play bows (bum up in the air, tail wagging, front end down on the floor, ears alert, possible barking). This is an invitation to play! :D It is also very good manners in the dog world. Dogs that don't play bow and just jump on another dog are rude and will be dealt with accordingly. ;)

Listen for high pitch yelps and a brief stop of play. This yelp teaches the other that "Ouch! That hurt! Be more careful!" That brief pause in the play right after the yelp is a very quick, "Oops! I'm sorry, I'll play softer." Now the puppy has learnt how to respect another, release when they hurt another and has learnt bite pressures.

Watch for mounting. This is how one puppy learns to either assert their dominance, or to accept their submissive status.

Watch for the way they greet each other (straight front legs, tails up, ears forward, one or both may sit before initiating play) The pup is now learning how to greet another dog, politely.

Please remember that your other dogs are also playing a role. Your adult dogs have asserted themselves to be dominant and don't want to be bothered with a young pup. She is acknowledging that dominance and has chosen not to bother them! Good Puppy!

She's learning a great amount from all of your dogs. If you're concerned that the play is getting too rough, then give them a time out. Please know that if it does get too rough, they'll regulate themselves. She's learning some wonderful skills that she'll utilize throughout her life. It may look rough to us, but in the ways of dog socialization, she's getting a great education. :D

[RottiMomCT]

Originally posted by AlphaDog
I will be VERY careful here. Agresive play with Rotties are not encouraged. If they are playing way too rough and you have any doubt that it's play, stop and and correct it. Better yet, separate those two. You want to teach your Rottie to be gentle with other dogs and not play rough.

Persoanlly, I'll seperate them. Don't go down this route.

Good luck

My Rottie boy Ben and his 'girlfriend' Morgan, a yellow Lab, play like they are going to rip each others throats out, but, they run, jump, and run some more, then jump all over each other, and then lay down next to each other for a bit to catch their breath, then start it all up again....

I don't encourage it, they do it all on their own! They correct each other when the play gets too rough.

Now, as for the rough play with people, that's a different story. When Ben and hubby (or me!) get a good game of tug going, it's always us, the humans, that start and end the games. Ben will bring us his tug toys, but we'll have him do a bit of obedience work (sit/stay or a bit of heeling up and down the hall) before the tug begins...like a reward for correct behaviors.

Ben plays with my hairdressers Pug the same way he plays with the Lab, and the Pug rules those games 100%!

I agree that the beagle is teaching correct manners to the pup...you can always step in if they get too rough!

[Carmen F]

Trish B -

You mentioned that dogs should "politely" approach each other and if not correct this behavior.....my question: My six month old female always jumps on other dogs (big or small) and I'd like some input from you or anyone with help on how I can "correct" this behavior.

[Judi W]

Find a cranky old bitch that will discipline her for her rudeness without actually injuring her. (scare the heck out of her) If I don't have one of my own, I always borrow one for my pups so they learn to "read" whether their attentions are welcomed or not.

[BarryMcD]

Angelina: I agree for the most part with the concensus: the dogs know what they are doing. But it is possible that a highly active, energetic and rough Rott may be overdoing it a little with a smaller dog.

You main problem is not with these two, it is whether or not you are properly socializing the Rottie. Proper socialization needs to be accomplished before 4 months if possible, but certainly before 6 months. After that, it becomes not a natural act that will happen by itself but a correction of behaviors and phobias that will need to be trained out of the dog.

You speak of the Rottie and the other dog--but that is not adequate socialization. This Rottie should be experiencing the following--every day if possible!

Go out on a leash and meet strange dogs.
Go out on a leash and see traffic.
Go out on a leash and and meet strange poeple.
Go out on a leash and walk in public.
Have strangers visit when the dog is home.
Have strangers visit when the dog is at your house.
Have the dog meet and play with women.
Have the dog meet and play with clean shaven men.
Have the dog meet and play with men with beards.
Have the dog meet and play with children. (Supervise carefully!)
Have the dog meet and play with old people.
Have the dog meet and play with mulitple dogs.
Get the dog together with a cat.
Get the dog used to the vacuum cleaner.
Go for rides in the car.
Etc.

The point is playing with one pup is not socialization, its a one-on-one relationship.
The problems you may reap from this twosome playing incorrectly will be automatically corrected by doing all these other things. The pup needs variety and new experiences and scary stuff and other animals and people and elevators and bells ringing and fire whistles and everything it can be exposed to. The more the better!

More specifically and for example--pups will develop different bite strengths with different dogs. I have a 6 month Rottie pup who play-fights violently with an adult Rottie and both love every minute. When the pup bites the adult, it bites hard. The same pup plays a lot with a tiny 19 pound basenji. Although the Rottie could snap the basenji in half without effort, it automatically adjusts its bite and mouthing to be gentle and safe with the basenji.

This type of adjustment will happen automatically IF the pup is exposed to different dogs. By having it play primarily with one dog (if that's the case), the Rottie is not going to necessarily
adjust correctly because it has no practice in adjusting. It may well be playing too rough for this dog because it's the only dog it has and it needs to do some roughhousing!

So forget the question about these two pups. You can let them play freely but you and your daughter need to be taking them everywhere to meet everyone. More dogs. Ferrets. People. Cars. Policeman. Afro-Americans. White folk. Men. Women.

Do it now before the window for this socialization closes!

[AlphaDog]

SOCIALIZE, SOCIALIZE AND SOCIALIZE. Barry is correct, expose your dog to different environment. As much as you can!! Take them to the mall, grocery shop and do it often. Now obidience training will help with the jumping. Always put your dog in a "sit" before letting any stranging petting them. When you meet other dogs and they want to play, let the dog sit first then release.

Now personally, I won't let two dogs meet and do any type of playing on lease. Holding a dog back on a lease brings out aggresion play out of them and this is bad. If you meet another dog and they are not going to be playing or don't know each other, avoid the whole intro but teach the dog to be calm, sitting by yourself while you have a conversation with your friend. No need to have the dog sniff it each other.

No one said you need to socialize your dog every time you meet a stranger or other dogs. The perfect situation is to have a controled environment. What I mean is if you walk you dog all the time and meet a certain person that you know and you want to teach your dog how to meet other dogs, set up the situation so that you can correct any thiing you don't like. Better yet, set up a situation where the other dog may even try to jump on your dog and correct your dog when he/she tries to jump back. After doing this several times, your dog will learn not to jump on other dogs, but better will learn that he only gets to meet other dogs when you allow it.

I don't know about you but my Rottie weighs 95 lbs and I walk him and my 55 lbs boxer at the same time. I can't handle a Rottie that wants to meet every dog in the park!! :) The dogs know that they can't even look at another dog without my permission. That's why I have a relase word "OK" and I have another word for calm down "EASY" and another word that says I've had enough, "KNOCK IT OFF". I use all of these in certain situations and the dogs know what I expect with each word.

Dogs get excited too when they meet their buddies so they may want to pull a little to get there faster so I will use "EASY". That doesn't mean they are in trouble, it just means stop pulling or stop with whatever it is that you're doing. Dogs will be dogs and we as owners have a responsibility to make sure we keep them out of trouble. TRAINING!!!!!!!, TRAINING and TRAINING This never ends, no matter how old.

[Rajah'sMom]

Those two must be a handfull, Alpha. My brother-in-law has a female boxer and she and my little girl Rott play about once a month. They play all day-non stop!!! They only pause briefly to get drinks of water. The day I brought Rajah home we were babysitting Nikki (the boxer) so I think Rajah believes Nikki is her mommy. Rajah actually tried to get milk from Nikki at first. It was so cute, we have a ton of pictures of them together. Once we get a scanner I will post a few. Nikki is going to be bred soon and we are strongly thinking about getting one of her pups. They expect to have the pups ready sometime in September-making Rajah one year old.

[TrishB]

Just an FYI, I didn't mean to imply that this would be the only socialization that the pup should get (if I did, I apologize). The poster said that this is actually her daughter's pup and that she's puppy sitting during the days. I'm sure her daughter is also socializing (different people, sounds, places, etc.), and if she isn't, she should be! ;)

If your puppy isn't greeting another dog politely (jumping right in):

I prefer to put them on a leash so that I have control of the situation. Walk your puppy in, do not let her make contact with the other dog. Have her sit and remain in the sit until the other dog comes over and acknowledges her. If she attempts to get up, place her back into the sit. A sit is a polite greeting from dog to dog. Once she's been acknowledged by the other dog (lick, wag, play bow, etc.) then she'll be allowed off to play. The reward is being allowed to play, the correct behaviour is the sit until acknowledged.

I LOVE Judi W's advice. My older dog Penny was a tiny 14lbs Sheltie. When I rescued the Pug, Bobby, Penny had to deal with him. She'd let him latch on to her rough and she'd walk around with this dead weight hanging off of her. But one day, he latched on and grabbed skin. Penny squealed and nailed him. *WHAM* She didn't break the skin, but Bobby was floored in a heartbeat with Penny looming over him. He just froze, Penny let him up, he licked her and they went on their merry way. He never bit her again! ;)

Dogs very rarely ever actually injure each other. Another, crabby dog (that you can vouch for their nature) is one of the best baby sitters and teachers for puppies. :D

[Angelica]

Thanks so much everyone for the advice! Roo does get out a lot and she is a sweetheart. My husky/shepherd, Rascal, is a little afraid of her. He's fine as long as he's on the couch but if he's on the floor and she approaches he runs like hell to get up on the couch. He is a rescue and is very gentle and loving and is quite interested in her. I suspect when she's bigger they'll be friends too. My old female springer, Suzie, doesn't like Roo at all and Roo keeps her distance and behaves submissively toward her. Bear, the shepherd cross is not overly impressed with Roo but tolerates her sniffing him, he is a very good dog, the only one who barks and alerts us to someone on our property. Interestingly enough, Roo mounts our old male cat who doesn't seem to mind too much, he plays with her and only gets upset when Zak gets involved. We are really enjoying the antics of Roo and Zak, we have a doll bed for Roo and they both get in and tussle till they tip it over. Zak mopes around for a while after Roo goes home each night and is very happy to see her in the morning. My mother was attacked last week by a rottie as she walked by a house. He was chained and snapped and snarled at her and broke his chain. She wasn't hurt thank God but he grabbed her by the hip and wouldn't let go until the owner came out. I would die if Roo did something like that . What if it had been a child? My daughter is going to enroll Roo in classes, I would imagine obedience training goes a long way in helping to prevent difficulties. She seems to be sweet natured and I'm very hopeful that she will continue to be.

[TrishB]

Originally posted by Angelica
My mother was attacked last week by a rottie as she walked by a house. He was chained and snapped and snarled at her and broke his chain. She wasn't hurt thank God but he grabbed her by the hip and wouldn't let go until the owner came out. I would die if Roo did something like that . What if it had been a child?

My God!! Is your Mother okay? That must have been terrifying! :(

That is the perfect example as to why dogs should not be left, unattended on a chain. It only encourages aggression. Here is a wonderful essay on this particular topic:

http://www.doggiedoor.com/chain.shtml

But the passage that caught my eye was this one:

Chained dogs learn nothing except that they hate isolation and hate being restricted while the rest of the world (including other dogs, cats, and all animals and people) may come and go (on their territory) as they please.

Due to the coming and going of others, the encroachment of their territory and no way to defend it, these dogs become overly aggressive. In their frustration, they become dangerous.

Please, never leave your dog unattended while on a chain. It's not only detrimental to your dog's temperament, it turns them into a danger in your own yard. :(

[Angelica]

My Mom is fine thanks, but it scared her pretty bad. Of course I blame the owner, not the dog and my Mom refused to press charges. I am very concerned if this should happen again, though I've gone by the house several times since and have not seen the dog chained out. In our area it's cool to have a big powerful dog and it's unfortunate that the dogs' intelligence far out weighs the owners. Some morons think if you beat a dog into submission they will do what you say. I have a friend at work who was mad when her son moved back home with his rottie. His name is Harley and he's huge and she now talks about him like he's her baby, even going home at lunchtime to take him out. She loves him to death!