best method of correcting aggressive behaviour

[amyryan]

I have a 15 month old female rottie and I was wondering what other rottie owners consider the best method in detering her from growling at strangers.

[FirstRott]

You should distract her before it happens with something else to keep her busy such as a sit/stay or a down/stay.

You should correct her to a degree when she does this to let her know that you don't approve, but distracting her is the most important part.

[BarryMcD]

First Rott has suggested a method many use, no doubt. I would like to offer an alternative that I feel works better. At least it has for me--many times. And I rescue abused dogs regularly from local shelters and train them. So I have some experience in this.

Get her socialized better by getting her out and about. Take her to friends' or relatives' houses. Invite people to your hours. Walk in the park. Walk down the streets of town. Make it a point in the next couple months for the dog to meet every person in town! Dogs too if she growls at them. Try for a new person or group of people each day if you have the time. (Start throwng some parties or something!) Try for a variety of people: women, men, men with beards, men with hats, teens, children, two people together, etc.

Of course, take whatever precautions are necessary. Make sure she's on a heavy leash and can be controled. Tie her to a handrail or something in your house when visitors come if she is prone to approach them.

While exposing her to lots of folks, I would suggest positive training methods only. No punishment or yelling "Stop" or "So!" The worst way to deal with assertiveness, aggression, and dominant behavior is with the same! This idea is being promoted more and more frequently by more and more experienced aggression specialists and trainers. (See for example The Canine Aggreesion Handbook).

Instead, if she growls, increase the distance between the person and the dog until she stops. Give her a few seconds to calm. Then reward her with "Good dog," and a pat on the head, or a treat.
Let the dog feel safe and calm for a moment at that distance. Then try appoaching just a little closer to the person being growled at. Just a tiny bit at a time. Maybe one foot. Put her in a sit stay. If she doesn't growl, reward again. Take your time and settle for very little at first. (You may get one foot closer to the first subject the first time and that's all the dog will tolerate. This will take time; Go in small steps.)

It also helps IMMENSELY if you can do a lot of this meeting of people outside in a neutral place like a street or park. The more room and less clustrophic, the better! Space has a dramatic affect on aggressive behaviors, and a dog that won't tolerate a stranger in your house at 20 feet may well accept 10 ourside without a problem. In your house or yard is probably the worst place to start since the dog will feel a protective instinct to guard the place.

If you can get her just a little closer to a few people you know, then have THEM toss her a treat!

The general idea is 1) expose to lots of people so any one is not a big deal, 2) Control the aggression by increasing the space between dog and person, 3) use positive reinforcement, no negative. Ignore the growl and just use distance to make it stop. Don't reward too soon after the growl stops or the dog may associate the reward with the growl rather than the stopping!

Be very calm yourself while doing all this. Do not get excited, mad, afraid, etc. Everything travels down the leash! If you show no alarm and relaxation toward people, it will help the dog to eventuallu show the same.

Also make sure you spend as much quality one-on-one time with the dog as you can. Walk it as often as possible, Play ball, or whatever it likes. Cabin fever is a major cause of bad behavior. Rottwielers cannot be left at home for a woprk day and then be expected to sit quietly while you watch TV and unwind. (Just an example--don't take ofense. I am not saying this is what you do!) They must be active.

Finally, you did not mention if this behavior just began or has been on-going, or has been increasing in severity. If it is a new behavior, (and maybe even if it's not) you may want to have your vet check the dog out. Many illnesses, especially and most commonly thyroid problems or anything causing pain or discomfort can cause a Rott to start to exhibit aggression.

Hope this helps.

Barry

[niche]

Barry has given you some good advice... apply it and you'll see improvement. Having said that, I will tell you that it may not be the method to correct behavior.

When I first rescued Wanda I thought she had sever dog-aggression problems. If she saw a dog, on a leash or without, she would go beserk. Barking, growling, lunging and carrying on.

I tried Barry's method and FirstRott's method with some, but very limited success. As time went by, I figured out that it wasn't dog-aggression at all, but merely frustration and undersocialization with dogs. She met and loved my neighbor's boxer as well as just about any dog she got close to. It wasn't until we joined a schutzhund club that the problem went away. And it went away by giving her a serious correction everytime she freaked out like that. Now she'll just look at a dog, and at the very most whimper.

Now, for people aggression I would suggest having all kinds of people throw her treats BEFORE she growls. That way she associates strangers with treats instead of a threat. If she does growl you should correct her to let her know it is unacceptable.

[Jamie & Odin]

Some more information on the specifics of her behavior would probably help pinpoint the type of aggression your girl is displaying. As there are different methods for dealing with those types. You would probably already know if she had fearful tendencies, but maybe not, as fear aggression may not seem fearful at all. If she is displaying fear aggression, I would advise against the strong corrections, as that would only escalate her behavior.

Others are definately better qualified than me to give you advice on how to deal with this, but keep in mind the methods for dealing with this should be specific to the cause.

[Rachel27]

Barry - you dont by any chance happen to live in PA do you? I am looking for a trainer for my 18 mo. old female. She is a sweetheart, has had basic obedience, but needs more and I was looking for a good trainer in Bucks County PA. Sounds like you know what you're doing. I have recently moved in with my parents who have a 6 yr. old lab and the rottie is trying to become alpha here and there is some agression when someone comes to the door. I need to stop this now and I wanted to find a trainer. Just curious if you were in my area. I'd be thrilled!!!

[Joanne in NJ]

Amyryan, I have a little not-weiler very much like your dog. Fear aggression with a dash of poor doggy social skills thrown in. After umpteen obed classes and giving her something else to think about- we're getting there.

Make her sit, make her heel, make her pay attention to you. My shy girl would also growl at people when she was overwhelmed. She's getting better and I can pretty much predict how much she can take. One person is ok, two people maybe. A wall of three people- forget about it. She's at least willing to approach someone, which is something she would not do before.

My obed instructer has her pegged as dog aggressive, but I really don't think so. I have foster dogs coming and going all the time and she's not the one I have to watch. But back in the beginning, she would scare the be-jesus out of the other dog walking people in the neighborhood with her awful poor manners.

[BarryMcD]

amyryan:

I agree with Jamie & Odin that to help you in any specific way we would all need to hear more about the growling, when it started, where she does it (at home, outside, etc.), how she reacts if you do correct her, how you correct her, does she do it for all strangers, dogs too, etc.


> niche wrote: Now, for people aggression I would
> suggest having all kinds of people throw her
> treats BEFORE she growls. That way she associates
> strangers with treats instead of a threat. If
> she does growl you should correct her to let
> her know it is unacceptable.

This is a good method if you want to prevent her from growling in the future at strangers who throw her treats before they approach! ;)

Although I myself suggested having a few people toss her a treat, I would not make this the entire training method. Niche is right that you MUST have the person throw the treat BEFORE she growls, which means the person will still be at a "safe distance" as far as the dog is concerned. I'll bet you, though, that as soon as the treat is devoured, if the person takes a few steps closer into the dog's discomfort zone, the dog will growl as usual.

This method, used extensively, would fail for two reasons. First, the fear or aggression that dog feels toward the stranger is probably 100 times stronger than any gratification she will get from a dog biscuit! (It's like me giving you a dollar to calm you down before I blow up your house!)

Second, the reward could end up not coming entirely AFTER the desired behavior, which is when a reward must occur! For example, what if the stranger throws a nice juicy beef steak at the dog and the dog starts growling as the steak is hurling through the air or landing at its feet? (And this is likely because if the dog is spooked by a stranger just standing or walking, what do you think is going to happen if the stranger throws something at the dog?
(The more I think about this method, the less I like it. I now disagree with myself for suggesting it in my last post!)

Theoretically, YOU (the handler) should be rewarding the dog for good behavior with a treat (or whatever the dog thinks of as a reward). Ultimately, it doesn't matter if a stranger approaches with nothing, a treat, a stick, or a beard, hat, and bicycle: You want the dog to behave in all cases, and to do that you must convince the pup that A. You are the boss, B. It is always more rewarding and fun (and safe) to let the strangers approach, and C. It is always no fun to growl because the pup will be deprived of something it wants.

Now Niche and others come from a different discipline and type of training than me, Shutzhund, and I do not presume to know enough about that discipline to even comment on its techniques, but I do know that it is not a traning method that is appropriate in its entirity for family pets. Some of its techniques may translate well to a household environment and work, but over the past years the training of PETS has turned farther and farther away from leash training, verbal corrections, and positive punishments (where you say or do or add something to the dog's environment to make it stop), and modern trainers, supported by behaviorists and the newest understandings about dog behavior, have overwhelming moved to what could in general be called positive training methods. This is occurring with all animals, too, not just dogs.

These "positive" methods advocate fewer corrections, the use of strategies like silence, time outs, or ignoring the dog (all negative punishments--punishments that take something away from the dog rather than do something to the dog) as a substitute for conventional punishments and verbal corrections.

Separately but related, the great mass of research and evidence about dealing with aggression suggests that using any form of assertiveness, aggression, cohersion, physical discomfort, or dominating behavior to reply to growling, barking, and other unacceptable dominant or aggressive canine behaviors is absolutely the worst way to deal with them. In this case, fighting fire with fire will only set the house on fire!

Based on this, I would suggest that you do not verbally or physically correct the dog--except for using the leash to move the dog away from the person it is growling at and to maintain everyone's safety.

Instead, think of your dog growling at a stranger as the least important thing in the world. When it happens, just put distance between the dog and stranger until the growling ends. Pay no attention to it. So not say one word to the dog! Then, with the person still within sight, reward the dog for its good behavior as it sits and eyes the stranger without growling.

Then look at your job as a simple game with these rules: A) You want to ignore the bad behavior (give the dog no attention for it) bacause this in itself can be a REWARD for some dogs and may increase the behavior. B) You want to consistently reward good behavior. Look for opportunities. If a particular person does get nearer than usual without eliciting the growl, reward the heck out of the dog! C) Under controlled conditions, try to decrease the distance between the dog/stranger slowly. If the dog does not growl, reward it! If it does, turn and walk farther away and ignore the dog for a minute or two. Then try again. The key to success is repetition, repetition, repetition... and consistency. Try at first to reward every time the dog allows someone near. Ignore and walk the dog further away every time it growls.

Finally, there are several variables that may be making the situation worse and harder to correct.

1) DO NOT start this training in your house. The dog's territorial and protective instincts will be working against you.

2) Experiment with someone else who the dog tolerates holding the leash! See if the dog is better or worse if you are not near.

About a year ago, my wife owned a Rott mix that became extremely aggressive toward other dogs, even some in our own 5-dog household. We worked all the techniques I knew, with my wife holding her dog on leash, but nothing seemed to work. Then I realized one day what the problem was: my wife! We were trying to desensitize an aggressive dog by having the person it loved, protected, and was most loyal to hold the leash and stand behind it as other animals approached her! Once I started to be the leash holder, the training worked fine! As a matter of fact, the second my wife left the room, the dog was better with no training! One reasons was that my wife was anxious and scared about the outcome, and this made the dog more edgy! Only later, after good progress was made, did we place my wife back at the other end of the leash. in a sense, this dog needed to be desensitized to my wife and her emotions, not the approaching dog.

If this is part of your problem, you can use alternate methods, like tie the dog to a pole or bench or something and get out of the immediate area, or stand in front of the dog as the stranger approaches. Or do walk-bys where a person just walks past the dog from right to left, then left to right. Reward when successful. Ignore when not. Decrease the distance of the person on the next pass-by if successful. You can still reward from a distance by tossing the treats, or have someone else reward. Also try approaching your dog WITH a stranger at your side. An interesting experiment!

By now, you should have the basic ideas. You can make up your own desensitizing exercises based on any variation of these ideas.

To conclude, back to the Shutzhund folks. They would probably not use most of the ideas I have mentioned, and may not even agree with the idea of using only positive rewards and negative punishments, but that is because, as I said earlier, they have different goals and a different relationship with their animals, and their animals are different from the average house pet Rottweiler.

What they do and their philosophies are appropriate for their sport. And it just happens that many of their methods are similar or the same as many "traditional" dog training methods, which are no longer in favor with many PET trainers. The methods used in a sport like Shutzhund or to train a police dog are done by knowledgeable trainers under controled conditions for specific reasons that relate to their goals. That does not mean that these same methods, used by a casual dog owner under uncontroled circumstances will work or yield the results you, as a pet owner, want.

The more positive-oriented and humane approaches (and I do not mean to suggest that Shutzhund is inhumane; not at all) are safer for you, have virtually no potential to hurt or aggrevate the dog or situation, and will yield very good results in most cases, with the added bonus of strengthening the bond between you and your dog in a distinctly positive way, without complicating your life with mind games about who's the Alpha, dominance, pack order, etc.

"Dogs cannot be bad, they can only be dogs."
Barry

[BarryMcD]

> Rachel27 wrote: Barry - you dont by any chance
> happen to live in PA do you? I am looking for a
> trainer...

Sorry, Rachel, I am hundreds of miles from you in mid-New York State.

Try searching online for trainers in PA by using search phrases like "dog training PA" and things like that.


"A dog cannot be bad, it can only be a dog."
Barry

[Rachel27]

Barry - I find reading your posts incredibly informative and very interesting. Any advice on how to stop my rottie from chasing the cats in the house? She will listen to commands 99% of the time, but when the cat catches her attention before I do, she ignores me until the chase is over and the cat is out of sight.

[WorkinDogz]

I don't know how old you are Barry, but I'm very old :D and remember quite vividly when a Pediatrican/Psychologist named Dr. Spock came up with a "purely positive" method of child rearing.

This method advocated "time outs" and reasoning....with a toddler... for inappropriate behavior... marking only the "good" behavior with lavish praise and ignoring "inappropriate" behavior with either NOTHING or "reasoning" or time outs.

No negative reinforcements other than "ignoring".

Produced a generation of BRATS who rarely see consequences for inappropriate behavior.

At some point.....corrections; (ie a negative stimuli) be it verbal, physical or a combination of BOTH really does have its place in training.

We see the results of "permissiveness" and overlooking the behaviors of dogs (I call it making excuses for the behavior...but you can call it whatever you'd like ;) ) and it truly is a result of the same type of mentality Dr. Spock used. (By the way...were you aware that Dr. Spock WAS NOT A PARENT??? No kids. Zero.)

S C H U T Z H U N D (I spelled it slowly...lol) imprinting differs very little from the pet in that our dogs are expected to be tolerant of their surroundings......but I have to tell you......we accomplish this without strangers tossing food at them!

You corrected yourself; which is good......because the HANDLER does indeed have the task of reinforcing the positive and reinforcing via correction what is negative.

Time outs.....and the Spock mentality will be as ineffective on this generation of K9's as it was on the generation of "selfish" kids that were raised using it.

It really IS OK to reinforce poor behavior with a correction.....you won't go to hell for it; and your doggie won't be "angry" with you.......and gee......he might actually be conditioned to NOT REPEAT THE BEHAVIOR if you're consistant enough with the imprinting! What a concept huh.

[Mick Trainer]

Firstly I would like to agree with Barry's technique in this case. It should indeed achieve the desired result with such a dog in a very short time.

Barry McD Wrote "Now Niche and others come from a different discipline and type of training than me, Shutzhund, and I do not presume to know enough about that discipline to even comment on its techniques, but I do know that it is not a traning method that is appropriate in its entirity for family pets. Some of its techniques may translate well to a household environment and work, but over the past years the training of PETS has turned farther and farther away from leash training, verbal corrections, and positive punishments (where you say or do or add something to the dog's environment to make it stop), and modern trainers, supported by behaviorists and the newest understandings about dog behavior, have overwhelming moved to what could in general be called positive training methods. This is occurring with all animals, too, not just dogs." This is an extremely subjective point of view based on experience and ones own ideologies. As you have clearly stated yourself Barry you know very little of Schutzhund and what it entails. Many of the "MODERN" training techniques and beliefs that you speak of came from schutzhund as people sought to improve what they were doing and how to achieve it. It may be better to not draw conclusions as to regards to something you do not have the knowledge on. Conditioning a dog to respond one way or another to a given stimulus whether it be for sport, police service dogs etc etc etc or a pet dog is no different. The dog learns to have an association between one and the other. The only difference being that a police dog etc "MUST" respond to a command no matter what level of stimluation it is under were a pet dog may not have to be so correct in it's commands. I for one however do not see it this way and feel that in the modern era of owning a dog (especially a dog such as a Rottweiler) if we are to take this dog in public (and even more so if the dog is too go off lead) the dog must respond to its commands as close to 100% of the time as possible. Whilst it is true that the "overall" training of dogs has moved further away from the use of compulsion and aversive training techniques taking into application such things as "successful approximation" and "random reinforcement" many many trainer and behaviorists have held onto the use of techniques that take into account positive punishment and negative renforcement. Some of the reasons for this maybe: 1)the lack of complexity of such techniques making them easier for the lay owner to implement. One of the great short comings of any technique is the ability of people to implemnt the technique in the way that is effective. Many professional trainers and behaviorist still advocate the use of + pinishment and many people find them easy to implement and are not as reliant on timing as total positive methods. 2)The quickness of the technique to alter behavior. 3)Some behaviors are self rewarding (aggression often fits into this) and thus some negative stimulation of some sort can result in a behavior switching from a successful to an unsuccessful behavior.4)The ability to gain correct responces to given triggers and stimulus under greater levels of duress. 5)To have the ability to bring knowledge and use of aversive techniques into the mix necessary to gain the desired result what is needed for each individual dog. Some dogs simply will not respond to positive only techniques same as it is true that not all dogs will respond to techniques that can be consider adversive. Many behaviorists and trainers see it necessary to add as many strings to their bow as possible. There is no one group of techniques that will work totally on all pets as even pet dogs vary greatly. A technique that would work on a adult, stong rank drive APBT will not necessarily work on a handler sensitive, overall soft temperamented Cavalier King Charels Spaniel. The fact is also that even Cavalier's and the like have high rank driven dogs and we cannot pick and choose the dogs people bring to us.

These are just some.

This should not mean that one is better than the other, but there is more than one way to train a dog and to suggest that one technique is only appriate for one application is to demean it as apposed to another. As I said above the correct use of any sound training techniques will gain results no matter what application we are trying to achieve.

Barry Wrote "Separately but related, the great mass of research and evidence about dealing with aggression suggests that using any form of assertiveness, aggression, cohersion, physical discomfort, or dominating behavior to reply to growling, barking, and other unacceptable dominant or aggressive canine behaviors is absolutely the worst way to deal with them. In this case, fighting fire with fire will only set the house on fire!

Based on this, I would suggest that you do not verbally or physically correct the dog--except for using the leash to move the dog away from the person it is growling at and to maintain everyone's safety."

Once agin this is a very subjective opinion that takes strongly into account opinions of other trainers and behaviorist that support the types of training techniques supported by Barry. This does not mean that they are wrong but to say that the "great mass" of trainers and behaviorist feel this way I feel to be incorrect and that the canine training industry is indeed well and truly split on the issue. I for one strongly advocate the use of postive punishment techniques in the curing of aggressive behavioral problems as I feel that aggression in the real world is often self rewarding for dogs and can be infinatly more difficult to cure without the use of such techniques. This does not mean I will not or do not use positive only techniques with some dogs, just that I do not find in the great number of cases that the use of positve punishment causes greater or higher levels of aggression. For me those that theories such things do so based on only half research that already supports already concluded beliefs. Having trained and corrected over 400 dogs that have taken the high level step of biting their owner, and many hundreds more that were aggressive to strangers etc I would have to disagree with such theories and believe that in great many cases that + punishment will infact have a very quick positive effect on the behavior.

There is a huge amount of misinformation in reagrds the use of positive punishment being perpetuated by trainers who's idealogy is towards postive only training techniques who use arguements based on research to support such points of view. But those that research such things, texts and research conducted in recent times by such people as Michael Domjan (text titled "The Principles of learning and behavior"), Azrin (and Holz) (text titled "Punishment in opperant behavior") Cambell and Church, Solomon will find many of these theories are just not true in all or even the majority of cases. We can lla find information to supprot what we do if we are willing to take the parts that we agree with a leave behind the parts that don't. Others that also aply in relation to the rules sorrounding the use of punishment and how the incorrect use effects dog such as M.E.Seligman will find many of the ideas that have been perpetuated by such people are not infact true and that not only are the negative effects of punishment in the learning process and in the altering behavior are greatly exagerated that there is in fact many positive results to such work.

To conclude, back to the Shutzhund folks. They would probably not use most of the ideas I have mentioned, and may not even agree with the idea of using only positive rewards and negative punishments, but that is because, as I said earlier, they have different goals and a different relationship with their animals, and their animals are different from the average house pet Rottweiler. Once again this shows a lack of knowledge as to what schutzhund and the likes entail. Schutzund for many, many years has been the temperament test required for the rottweiler to breed and has helped to shape the overll temperament of the rottweiler that we have all grown to love. Such techniques weather they be a pet dog or not relate to the Rottweiler as although few dogs have the genetic ability to make the grade in such things as schutzund does not mean that the two are worlds apart. Infact the reverse is often the case and that the two are very closely related. Good control ina dog in real life and on the sporting feild are often identical. Certainly a dog that is bred for Schutzhund may be "Harder" in temperament than one that is not this does not mean that the same techniques will not work although it may not.

The methods used in a sport like Shutzhund or to train a police dog are done by knowledgeable trainers under controled conditions for specific reasons that relate to their goals. That does not mean that these same methods, used by a casual dog owner under uncontroled circumstances will work or yield the results you, as a pet owner, want. The facts are that a police dog must achieve almost 100% consitant response to to a given trigger or stimlus almost 100% of the time. As I have written above I see no reason for this to vary from that of a pet dog. A sound training technique will achieve the desired result with almost any dog. There certainly is no proof to sepport that a positive only technique will work better when a dog in outside of its controlled envionment than one that uses aversive techniques. If anything this is too the contrary as a technique that will use + punishment in the final stages of the training will not only gain the same result as a postive only technique (as the initial training of the technique is positive) but it adds a catch to the dog to say "now that you know what to do if you dont, well there a catch". This can lift the consistantcy of responce well up.

The more positive-oriented and humane approaches (and I do not mean to suggest that Shutzhund is inhumane; not at all) are safer for you, have virtually no potential to hurt or aggrevate the dog or situation, and will yield very good results in most cases, with the added bonus of strengthening the bond between you and your dog in a distinctly positive way, without complicating your life with mind games about who's the Alpha, dominance, pack order, etc. Whilst you may say that schuzhund is not inhumane the use of such a word suggest that those that use techniques not fitting into the "Positive only" mold are using techniques that are inhumane. Such a word once again in very subjective. What one person calls inhumane another may have no problem with. Also to suggest that a positive only technique has less negative contingencies than one that takes into effect some use of aversion is one of the pieces of misinformation that I seak of above. Both posoitive only and those that take into account compulsion have possible negative contigencies and can be if conducted in the incorrect way on the wrong dog can create great danger for the handler. I have had to correct many many dogs that have been incorrectly trained through positive only techniques. Some dogs simply are too strong for such techniques. The same can certainly be said for aversive techniques. If used incorrectly they can indeed cause defensive reactions towards the owner and damage the dogs temperament as well as other things. But so can all techniques. The key is too find a balance or technique that fits the dog and hanlder. Barry also suggest that you will have a better relationship with your dog for positive techniques only, which is too suggest that using some degree of aversion or compulsion that you will damage such a realtionship. This again is what I call misinformation. Yes if used incorrectly or with the wrong dog such techniques will indeed weaken your relatioship but if used correctly aversion will have no ill effects on the hanlder/dog relationship and will often improve it. Punishment is indeed a natural part of the relationship between dogs in a pack and very much in the realtionship between pup and mother. Some argue that the likleyhood of damaging a dog with positive only techniques is lower. I agree it is indeed the case. But not always the case.

I do not want this to be a bashing positive only techniques (I am using clicker to train Shakirra my 16 weeks old bitch as I do to train a lot of inital responces into all my dogs and for film/trick type of work) nor of me Bashing Barry although I think that many will see it as such. However the truth is positive techniques have great merit and I for one hope that training keeps going down this path and I hope that Barry keeps writting his indepth posts. I simply wanted to highlight some points that I could not 100% agree with and that I felt showed a lack of knowledge in one area. I also wished to clear up some ideas expressed that where opinions based in idealogy and nothing more. Nor do I wish to alter what Barry has written here, to this particluar thread starter, the advice given here I feel to be correct at this time. Nor do I wish to try to alter what Barry is doing, he has clearly found a training technique that his idealogy agrees with. I just wished to show that there is always another side. I hope that Barry will offer opinions on what I write. Having two or more possible techniques that people can use to cure such behavior will allow them to use the one that fits better with their ideology, dog etc.

I feel that any truly good trainer/behaviorist will have good knowledge on all training techniques and will be able to bring all techniques into play when needed. I for one think that we all should teach behaviors that we want through as positive techniques as is possible and in the great many cases feel that we can alter behavior through positve only techniques but feel that we must also have a good knowledge as to where such techniques have weaknesses. Many things that have been written in regards training techniques both positive only and those that also use aversion have not been based in research but rather in opinion. This is something we all must be careful with.

WorkinDogz speak of Dr Spook's work which was based in some part on the ideas of B.F. Skinner and that punishment has very limited ability to alter behavior etc. However recent research such as that spoken about above do not support this theory and has infact shown the exact opposite that indeed = Punicshment has great ability to alter behavior. There has been a lot of arguement lately between Skinner theorists and the researchers from the labs of M.E.Seligman or his research partner Bruce Overmier and the use of Negative Reinforcement. Who is correct and who is not may never be answered in our time, but the fact is that one is not absolutley correct as many behaviorists or trainers would have us believe. There is at present now days once again much research into the use of punishment etc that for a time was seen a politically incorrect. This can only serve to help us all and bring to light some of these theories perpetuated by many as being incorrect on both sides of the arguement.

Mick.

[amyryan]

My female is 15 months old we suspect that she may have been abused by her former owner. She loves other dogs. However she does not like strange men entering the home. Her behaviour hasn't gotten worse in fact for a while she was fine as long as I went outside to greet the person first and had them follow me inside. I find that her reaction varies each time sometimes she's fine other times she growls, howls and once even snaped. I hope this helps clear things up.

[WorkinDogz]

I'll say this one more time....and that's it forever on this forum.... POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT in the conditioning phase (teaching phase) certainly is more adventagous to the dog (and the relationship between dog and owner) than compulsion based methods.

The dogs appearance while doing obedience is enough to show who was heavy handed and who wasn't during the imprinting phase....

Corrections (compulsion. Negative stimuli) in the proofing phase AFTER THE DOG HAS BEEN CONDITIONED to know what is expected yet the DOG OPTS to be DISOBEDIENT is where the long term consequenses for a disobedience are imprinted......and serve as a valuable reminder to the dog that OBEDIENCE IS EXPECTED. Corrections are not inhumane. They are consequenses for incorrectness. Don't be mislead by people who tell you that you're evil if you correct your dog! Chances are; they are the same ones who give the Principle a lot of lip and say "not MY child" when they get a call from the Police Department to come pick their kid up for shoplifting!

Dogs are not blithering idiots.....they only ACT THAT WAY when they know they can get away with the garbage behavior!

It is NOT UP TO THE DOG to decide who "they want" to visit you!

[Hawk]

Feel free to disagree with other members, but please do so in a manner which is respectful to the Forum and fellow members. Personal barbs, (veiled or not) , condescension, sarcasm and shouting are examples of disrespect for fellow members and will not be tolerated.