aggression while being held

[brooke]

Can someone give me some advice on what to do with this situation. Zeus is always very excited to see people (strangers or friends) The other day someone new came over, he and Zeus got aquainted at the door for about 5min. Then I had to take Zeus out so I was putting his collar on and holding him while this new friend came in, as he went by he pet Zeus, Zeus let him for about 10sec then all of a sudden he growled. I said "Hey" and "no" then he snapped at my friend! Didn't bite him, just snapped??? I quickly took him out and I asked my friend if he would mind if I let him come in the room again. He said no problem so I did and of coarse Zeus was just great licking him and wanting to play! It seems when I was holding him he was more agressive. On our last trip to the vet about 2 mths ago, I got the same reaction while I was holding him and she tried to check his ears and even stomach. He growled at her. She was very wary around him and I know he sensed it. We had to muzzle him :(
He never reacted like that before that time with the vet and now with this friend. Maybe I should just step back at the vet's office and when he meets someone new. He may not want them around me, he's like that with other dogs. Fine until they come around me, then he chases them away. Thanks for any advice you could give.
Brooke

[BostonRott]

Bending over a dog, to any degree, puts the dog on the defensive. If he is not comfortable with this, which many are not, the dog will react to other things more strongly.

Try holding him on-leash, instead of by the collar. Try not to lean over him in any fashion, though being down next to him does not give you a lot of leverage should he lunge.

[AngelBunny]

BostonRott:

"Try not to lean over him in any fashion,..."

I don't think advising an owner to refrain from doing things a dog doesn't appear to like is appropriate. If the dog growls when a human approaches Fido's food bowl--obviously, Fido doesn't like the human there. Does this mean you'd advise the owner of this dog to not go over to the dog's bowl? Where do you draw the line?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your dog to be calm when the dog is being held by its owner and not to growl and snap at approaching people. The fact of the matter is we *need* to train dogs how to live in our world because if they aren't able to do so, they get put down.

brooke:

How old is Zues? I'm guessing he's on the young side since you said he hadn't behaved badly at the vet before.

Sounds to me as tho you need to work on Zues' socialization.

[Habs]

I tend to agree with the leaning over thing...I advice all strangers not to lean into my guy, why take a risk when you don't have too..why tempt fate,

Don't get me wrong I a do a tremendous amount of training with my guy....I don't think he would do anything.....would I bet my life on it...no!.....so why would I risk a strangers face.

I think it is good advice to train and socialize your dog to the enth degree...but when you are in control of a situation..remove all doubt that anything can happen.

i.e 4 kids running and playing in the back yard...you put your dog under your supervision in the back yard with them....your dog has been trained to behave(around jumping, yelling and normally rambuctious kids)....but why risk it...leave him in the house...remove all doubt...just another example

Oh and and as far as leaving your dog alone at the vet.....remember your a member of his pack and he feels safer and more confident around you...I highly doubt it is a protection thing...it's more than likely uneasiness or bullying.

Habs

[brooke]

Zeus is 2yrs 7mths. He's been to the vet 5 times. He is neutered. He has taken training classes and each time he loves it and appears to be the perfect angel. Always an angel when it comes to food as a reward!! I will discuss this behavior with the trainer when his next session comes up, but he totally loves her and she has said she couldn't see Zeus doing that with the vet, and that he probably sensed her fear and got nervous himself. Thanks for the advice. If I have to not bend over him though I would refain from doing that. I think there's a certain amount of "personal space" that a dog needs too.

[BostonRott]

Now where do you get that I said "not to do things the dog doesn't like" ???

The original post talks of a dog reacting to a stranger, and the owner, at that moment, leaning over the dog.

My reply is that if the dog is already uncomfortable with someone (growls), leaning over the dog is only going to escalate the problem, as it raises the dog's defensive drives.

"Being held" by an owner is NOT always a good thing for a dog. It depends on the situation and how the dog is being held, how the dog perceives the situation, etc.

If a dog is uncomfortable with a person, the owner holding the dog may be increasing the dog's perceived sense of self, and may only be escalating the situation, as is presented here. Dog growls, owner standing over dog gives a stern command, dog escalates and snaps. Again, dog being held at vet, this time feeling trapped and uncomfortable, gives vet a hard time b/c he's uncomfortable w/ the situation and feels trapped (defense drive).

Working on Zeus's socialization is good, you also need to work on your relationship with him. Let him learn that you holding him at the vet is not bad, you can practice at home and have people he knows WELL and likes practice being the vet, start with simple pets, then examine feet, ears, etc.

Also, be sure that Zeus will allow YOU to examine his feet, ears, etc. Many dogs don't like this, and he's got to accept it from you before you can expect him to accept it from others.

[frau]

Hi Brooke,

Our Gypsy is 2 and acts wonderful in the ring, too.. She seems to be able to go into work mode. She is, however, unrealiable around strangers. She has been improving with age, but I still wouldn't allow her around small children.

She was socialized like crazy, traveled with my tennis team her first spring. Something happened around 1 year of age and she began barking at strangers. She hasn't bitten, but I don't want to give her the chance.

She was trained using positive methods only. I could tell, though, that the trainer, despite having a Rottie herself, was leery of Rotties in general. Since we have started SAR training with my daughter's GWP, we have found a trainer well-grounded in Schutzhund who uses more traditional methods. We have seen marvelous results with the GWp and I am considering taking Gypsy to her.

This woman and her husband are NOT afraid of Rotties, or of getting bitten in the training ring. They expect immediate action on command. Gypsy is quick and sharp, and I think this different sort of training will enhance my control of her AND her control of herself.

Consider further training with Zeus.

Good luck,

Frau

[TrishB]

Behaviour at the vet can be facilitated by the owners; for better and worse. ;)

Dogs need to know that you're confident in this situation. Be sure to remain confident and to only praise positive behaviour. Many people inadvertantly whip their dogs into a frenzy by saying in a soft, whimpering type voice: "Oh it's okay, be good, good puppy, it's okay...." while petting them.

Meanwhile the dog is scrambling on the floor, excited, and getting more stressed! Why? Because they see that their owner is uncomfortable, they're upset and whining and praising them for scrambling on the floor and getting stressed!

Do not pet or acknowledge any other behaviour than perfect, clam, collected and pleasing behaviour. When they're sitting nicely, calmly say good dog and a confident pat.

Dogs will feed off of your own energies - if you're calm, they'll remain calm too. Often a dog will be 'taken into the back' to be held by a technician at the vets. The vast majority of dogs are fine and don't require a muzzle in this situation simply because they're not being praised (unknowingly) by their owners for being upset. Away from their owners, they become calm again, remain confident and behave wonderfully (many, not all).

I'm not suggesting that this is why your dog wasn't behaving, but wanted to give you some insights that may be contributing to it. :)

As for the leaning over, I agree that strangers should not be leaning over your dog. It's a very dominant move and strangers have no place doing so.

However, if you lean over your dog, they must accept that. If you have control of your dog, they need to trust in you that YOU'RE taking control of the situation and that they don't need to worry.

As the others have mentioned, I would highly recommend going back for more obedience work and socialization. You can never have enough! :)

[Jamie & Odin]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would you hold your dog? Do you mean actually holding him up in your arms? I expect Odin to comply with absolutely anything I want to do to him, but would not be surprised if he, or any dog, got anxious while being held up in the air. Especially if he is 2 yrs. 7 mos. old, he couldn't possibly feel very secure as I don't know how you would comfortably support his weight. Like I said, maybe I misunderstood something, or am unclear about the purpose.

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

I was wondering about the holding too. My dogs would hate being lifted up and I can't think of many reasons to do it, anyway. And Miller, forget it. I can't even push him, let alone lift that 130-lb monster lab.

But I think the holding here is just holding the dog, like a hug.
The thing that comes to mind is, as others have said, that the dog is reading the owner's tension, even if the owner doesn't realize it, and reacting to that. Brooke says her dog is aggressive when she is holding him; it reminds me of how Buddy reacts to a tight leash - he reads the tight leash as me being afraid or tense, and he reacts to that. Maybe that is how Zeus is reading being held by Brooke.

[brooke]

Yes Soapie & Buddies mom is right. I had one hand in his collar and was hugging him with the other. I can't lift him at all!! But, I realize I am soothing him by my voice, but it wasn't like he was upset beforehand or anything. I was just petting him along with my friend and saying good dog etc. I was rewarding him for sitting and being pet!!?? Then he growled at him?
Thanks for all the advice, I did soothe him at the vet when he got defensive and she did tell me not to do that. But I guess once I quit it, it was already to late and he was very defensive. Thanks again. I'm trying hard to stop pampering him and not reinforce any bad behaviour or nervousness. :)

[TrishB]

Originally posted by brooke
Thanks again. I'm trying hard to stop pampering him and not reinforce any bad behaviour or nervousness. :)

So you know - everyone does it. We love our puppies and want to reassure them! We just need to remember how our dogs may perceive our actions and go from there. ;)

[Habs]

Show affection on your terms...when I come home from work my guy is going nuts inside....so I let him outside and I go inside...give him about 20 minutes, then go outside and play with him.....it's all on my terms.
I find myself the wide majority of the time in alpha mode....not allowed in the living room, not allowed on the couch, not allowed to beg for food, not allowed to go downstairs unattended etc etc etc. 70%alpha 30% fun or somewhere around there. It is extremely important that these two numbers do not get reversed, or your life will turn into a living nightmare.

Habs

[brooke]

Habs, my life is far from a nightmare, I love my baby and he loves me dearly but yes, I do let him do everything you don't allow! :(
I love playing with him when I get home! But in spite of those 2 incidents he is the perfect angel. Really, he does listen very well when he knows I mean business. I do see now, though that I should have been more the alpha! But I think Zeus knows who's boss. And he defends more out of nervousness and insecurity. Thanks for your post. I would definitly recommend your advice to new owners :)

[Habs]

Every time you let your dog win( and this could be everything from giving him affection every time he asks for it to letting him stand in front of you and yearn for your food), he's testing you...that's how they think...and he's winning.

These little wins build his confidence as far as the hiarchy within your home,"the Pack", and one day, I'm not saying for sure....but one day he may want to take a shot a being lead dog.

This is exactly how those "fun loving" Rotties become aggressive..it's in their nature, they live to be the lead dog unless shown otherwise.

The mear fact that he is shown aggression to others in your presence when you don't allow it speaks volumns about what you think is true and what he thinks is true ....you need to get a much deeper respect from him...and solidify your position as Alpha.

I've seen your exact situation with a close friend of mine, his Rottie at age 4 ended up biting a 5 year old girl on the face right in front of him, it was my little girl. Luckily not a serious bite. We both learned alot from that incident which happened over 4 years ago now. They don't think the way we do!!!!!!

Take my advice for what it is worth, just another opinion, but one thing I can gaurantee, and that is paying attention to details will reduce the odds of you ever having a problem with your guy.


Habs