help. got bit in dog fight

[Rachel27]

I need help and I need it ASAP. My fixed female rott is approx 17 mos. old. She has NEVER shown any signs of aggression in any way shape or form. She has always been the gentlest most well dispositioned dog. Everyone that has ever met her has said the same. Anyway, what happenned the other night and again tonight SHOCKED me. The first itme I didnt think much of it, but tonight I sure did. When someone knocked at the door, I went to answer it. So did all three dogs, as usual. Well, I opened the door, got the mail from the mailman, heard the dogs barking like crazy, which is normal, but turned around and saw my rott attacking the lab. She was on top of her, grabbing the back of her neck, shaking the hell out of it and growling. I broke it up by squirting vinegar. (The rott is deathly afraid of the vinegar squirt bottle)That was the end of that. Well it happenned again tonight, but worse. I couldnt break them up and couldnt find the water bottle, so I tried to break them up by pushing her with my foot, like an idiot and got bit. Pretty bad, I'm done bleeding now, but it has already bruised and there are four distinct teeth marks in my leg. I realize now that breaking it up was rather stupid on my part, but I've never seen nor broken up a dog fight before, I thought they would stop.

So, why is she doing this now after being so docile all this time, and what should I do to stop it??

I should add that after I broke up the first fight, Roxie, the rott danced around the lab trying to play with her. Right after she attacked her.

I am afraid one of the dogs is going to get seriously hurt, or me.

HELP!!!!

[TrishB]

First things first! You have to get checked by a doctor. Dog bites can get infected very easily due to the bacteria in their mouths. It can also lead to blood poisoning. PLEASE GET CHECKED!

You need to have your Rottie's temperament evaluated by a professional. If you don't already have a proffessional trainer that you've been working with, ask your vet to recommend someone to you. They'll assess her temperament, discuss the situation and be able to give you some recommendations as to how to deal with this problem.

Right now, she is a danger to you, your other dogs and herself. She needs your help!

There are also many Rottie Rescue associations which will have access to Evaluators. Please don't hesitate.

In the mean time, I'd suggest that you seperate the dogs until you can arrange the evaluation.

[Lindsay and Lyn]

Hi Rachel
Sorry to hear you got bitten. Bet it hurts! Rotties are industrial strength dogs.... she didn't mean it.
Now - Dont Panic.
Your girl is just becoming assertive at 18 months. Feeling her stocks going up. Deciding to show that snotty Lab who is Boss.
You may need to help with a judgement. Is her star on the rise. Is she the dominant dog? Do you want her to be? She has been plotting her move for quite a while. Did you notice?
You can settle it by feeding the dog you want to be boss first and making the others wait. Really make a big deal of it.
Give that dog the VIP treatment. The message will get through pretty darn quick. Remember the pack rules. You have to be absolutely unwavering or it will be for nothing. They know us a lot better than we know them, and are geniuses at making every incremental gain, every slip, count.
So much for the dumb dog theory...
Get your leg treated too. And have the shots. And a big hug from New Zealand. Good luck, Lindsay

[Judi W]

Ouch! Yes, for sure get medical attention. Puncture wounds almost always get infected.

It is not uncommon for fights to break out at the fence or gate when status shifts are taking place, however they rarely ever result in actual bites and should not. A bunch of trash talking and yelling should settle it.

Now, the concern here is that it took place when YOU were the one in charge of the door as that indicates that the respect for your charge was missing. I'll bet they jostle you trying push to the front as well. That means industrial strength training is in order for all. They should not be behaving that way when it is your door and your position to be at the front. They should be standing politely behind you accepting that you are making the decisions.

It is likely that the Rottweiler will be the natural leader in the pack, however she'd darn well better learn that she does not get to assert herself with attacks. That is where you come into the equasion. You are the leader, and you will establish the rules of behavior. Don't start elevating her if she doesn't understand that she stands behind people in the line of assension. The favor to the leader theory is fine, but that leadership must be good leadership and not being nasty to others. There is a difference.

[Rachel27]

Thank you all for your replies. I would like to say though that she did NOT bite me!! I dont know which dog bit me, but they were going after each other. Neither one purposely bit me. I just stuck my foot in to break it up and got bit on the calf. Also, the main reason I asked for advice is because this dog has (up till this incident) the gentlest temperment, the most docile dog. I will follow the advice of making her know that she is not the alpha dog. She is always trying to play with the "snotty" lab (LOL) and maybe she is showing her assertiveness and I am mistaking it for wanting to play. Anyway, I will follow all of your advice and hope for the best. She has had formal training, but OBVIOUSLY needs more if she should be sitting behind me when someone knocks at the door. Thanks!!!

[Judi W]

I sure no one thought she was trying to bite you. But... she sure was trying to bite someone! ;) You just got in the way. She's still quite young so you really are not finished with the formal training for some time yet. It's these sweet things that lead us down the garden path while they are quietly social climbing behind the scenes.

Don't forget the Lab in the training either. Takes two to do that fighting thing and the whole crew needs to learn that you mean what you say and say what you mean and that is "no fighting"

[miss_rogue]

Assertiveness seems to come more with the females than with males. How long have you had her? Have you ever has a Rott before. There are a few different ways you can approach this. I had an experience like that a few years ago with a Rott. Are you an assertive person? Do you think you can stand up to a Rott when it's angry and not back down? Before you try anything assertive with her make sure you trust the dog. Does your lab go back after her or does she cower down?

[BarryMcD]

Rachel27:

I'll leave it to others to suggest trainers and medical attention you should get. I just wanted to suggest a couple ways you can preak up a dig fight like this with minimal danger to yourself--if you still have the will to try! If not, I don't blame you, though the first few suggestion will be of little risk.

1. The best solution is often prevention, so keeping the dogs apart for a while may lead to a cooling off period. SOmething to try. Maybe separate the offenders for a week. Then reintroduce.

2. Often these scuffles for dominance last only a moment, and most often, unless you have dogs who are really maladjusted and vicious, the dogs don't do major harm to one another. Though it may not seem like it to you, the dogs have very accurate control over the pressure of their bite, and if your Rottie did not pierce skin and draw blood, it is because the Rottie did not want to. (Had a 4 yr. old Rottie bite the head of a tiny basenji pup once. It looked like sure death, but hardly a dent was left in the basenji's fur!)

So unless you have recurrent fights, and they last long and produce real injuries in the dogs, you MAY do best to just let them have it out. This may actually in some cases let the dogs settle an "issue" they have and the fighting may stop dramatically after one or two short fights.

There are many that will disagree with this because they will say YOU must be the ALPHA, and so you cannot permit this behavior. There are so many reasons that that is doubtful advice, I won't even get into it. For one, no matter how strong an Alpha you may be, 1) Your safety comes first and you do not ever want to get between two fighting dogs ever again, and 2) the idea that you as Alpha should prevent the fighting suggests that you, one human with limited knowledge of what is really going on, are going to be able to overcome the instincts and pack rules that these dogs have followed for thousands of years! I don't think so! And if you succeed in breaking it up, what do you accomplish? You postpone the issue the dogs were fighting over, maybe surpress it for now, but it will return!

You have to remember that most people who study dog behaviuor as a career and as a science will tell you that when two dogs are going at it full-tilt, neither sees you as a master, as a friendly owner, or as a helpful person trying to break up the fight. As a matter of fact, the dogs most likely DON'T SEE YOU AT ALL! That's why a dog that has been so loving to you could bite you. In a dog fight, instincts kick in and each dog sees and hears only one thing: the other dog.

3. If you do feel duty-bound to "break it up," here are some suggestions that, while not totally safe, are much safer than your first attempt.

A. The water bottle squirt is a good tool because you can employ it at a distance. Make several squirt bottles and place them around the house wherever you think the dogs might meet and start a fight. If the dogs do start ignored the squirt, try using more vinegar and less water if you are diluting, or switch to and experiment with some other liquids like one of the Bitter Apple or other brands of nasty tasting stuff. Some swear by a solution of Ceyanne Pepper. (Don't let anyone tell you this is cruel and inhumane to the dogs! When it comes to a dog's comfort and safety vs. a bad injury to another dog or especially a person, there is nothing to hesitate about or be ashamed of. You pick the lesser of two evils.

4. Another technique, if you feel another fight is coming soon, is to attach leads to both dogs and let them wear them all day. (There is a small chance that the lead could be caught in something and cause some harm to the dog if you are not around to supervise, but I find this unlikely in the case of a fairly large dog.)

If you want to add a bit more safety and comfort for the dogs while adding a pinch more challenge for yourself, you can do what I have done several times with aggressive dogs: buy a short one or two foot lead and attach that rather than a five or six foot leash. In either case, you will have something to grab, and even if alone, depending on your body strength and the size of the dog, you may be able to pull one dog away. If you can do so, you drag it as fast as you can into a bathroom or behind the nearest door and separate it from the other dog. This works better of course if two people are there, one to grab each dog. There is still a chance of getting bitten by mistake, but it is a lot less than trying to grab a collar or the dog itself.

5. The standard technique that many professional dog handlers use to break up a two-dog fight is to go behind one dog and grab the ankles of its back legs with your hands. Then lift the back of the dog right off the ground, so only its front feet are on the ground. This takes less strength than it may seem. The hardest problem will probably be trying to grab the ankles if the dogs are moving erratically. Then, like PULLING a wheelbarrow, pull the dog backwards (do not try to push it forward at any time!) away from the other dog. As you pull the dog back, rather than moving in a straight line, walk a curve so the dog is not only walking on its front feet backwards, but is also negotiating a gradual arc. This also will prevent the dog from turning its head around and going after you. If the dog starts looking over its right shoulder, for example, start curving to your right as you continue to walk backwards. A dog held firmly by the ankles in this position has little balance and little to lean against to gain stability or strength.

This technique again works best if you have two people so each can grab one dog. There is a chance that if you only "wheel" one dog backwards, the other will keep attacking, and you will be actually lessening the ability of the dog you grabbed to defend itself, so if I did this myself, I would pull the dog away as quickly as possible, and I personally would grab the most hostile dog, but again, this all depends on your size, strength, and willingness! Though it is definitely a method that works well with two humans--one per dog--I have done it effectively by myself by pulling just one dog away. Sometimes, though the dogs are going at it with a fury, one may actually be hoping for an excuse to stop fighting.

The key to ending all dog fights is DISTANCE and then SEGREGATION in separate rooms or crates.

If at all in doubt, stay out! That's the untimate rule. Although we love our dogs, people's safety must always come first!

Barry

[waschull]

A couple of things, based on my own experience. These large working dogs mature slowly. My 2 Akitas and my American Bulldog were all super sweet and submissive until 18 - 36 months. At some point during that age range, they all became concerned with jostling for alpha. The AB didn't really start until 3 yrs whereas the Akitas were both about 18 monhts. In all cases, this ushered in a period of fairly regular dominance challengings in my 7 dog family. (The AB is still constantly challenging other dogs.)

However things seem to settle back down after the order is reshuffled. While my 2 Akitas gave the rest of the family grief for about 6 months, now they they are the estblished alpha sisters, we haven't had a scramble in years. I almost forgot how bad it used to be! Of course, the AB is reminding me....

Anyway, I use headcollars (Halti or Gentle Leader) with a short lead (about 1 ft) attached. For a single women, breaking up 2 near 100 lb dogs is pretty tough, the headcollar gives you a huge advantage. When you pull on the lead, you close the jaw and gain control of the head. Pull the heads aways from one another and quickly seperate the dogs.

BTW - I personally believe in only a short cooling down period (not weeks) after a fight, I might keep mine seperate for a few hours but then I reintroduce them. I usually try to do this in a fun way, like going for a walk. I'm no expert but I feel they are more likely to fight when re-intriduced after a longer seperation. Unless you plan to keep them seperated permanently, I think it is better to keep them around one another.